Because of the risk of major fire, this topic merits it's own thread:
The following is a distillation of some posts on another thread-

Plastic gas cans are VERY static producing! A static spark, can in some cases, cause a major gasoline fire during the fueling process. The problem with plastic cans is that, the static charge builds up, and is distributed OVER THE OUTSIDE of the can, not in the liquid within. When you have a metal can, and it is bonded to the aircraft structure, the static can equalize with the airframe. Not so with the plastic can. I'd very strongly caution anyone to at least get metallic fuel cans if you're going to pour your own fuel... I know it's a PIA, but so is burning!! !!...I've seen the results of grounded fuel tanks and plastic cans, and it's not pretty! Yes, I know that lots of people get away with it... but just because they do, are you willing to risk your life on it?

We struggled with this in the Alaskan Aviation Safety Foundation, in cooperation with Monte Parrish, a professional fuels expert, trying to find some relatively safe way to dissipate the static from a plastic can. We could find no safe way to dissipate a static buildup on the outside of a plastic can. Monte tried really hard, with a lot of experiments to find some safe way to do so, and he was a fuels handling expert.

The static charge doesn't reside in the center of the liquid, but rather on the periphery.

The biggest risk factor is using plastic cans in cold temperatures, with dry air. I have used plastic cans for years, but I don't use them in winter.

Considering the inherent danger, it makes one wonder why the plastic cans are manufactured and used at all.\

Can anyone suggest the best lightweight metal cans for carrying in the baggage area? How do they hold up with changes in altitude? Do they leak fumes into the cabin?

MTV, JH, Berk, and others, contributed to this digest.

Hey Berk, this is a good question and am dying to here the replies. Dying is a poor choice. I was in GI Joes the other day and saw a plastic flat tank that goes into a cheap out board fishing boat. What about hooking up an electric fuel pump and running a hose to the tank. With a long hose you could leave the tank in the baggage comp.

Do you still have the static problem if you just leave your existing plastic jug on the wing an run a syphon hose to the tank. I have cool syphon hose with a little ball check so you just jerk the hose back and forth a couple of times and it starts a going.

Not sure that I would sugest these two ideas, I was just throwing it out.

Tim

Part of the solution may be the static dissipating funnel from www.mr.funnel.com I've used them with a hose pumping out of a tank but not with a plastic gas can. Here's a quote from their website: "The Mr. Funnel Fuel Filter’s innovative design combines an anti-static polypropylene funnel with it’s own filter. When fuel is poured through the Fuel Filter Funnel, water and debris will not pass through the filter’s fluoropolymer-coated stainless steel filter. Only filtered fuel flows through to your engine, improving its efficiency, durability, and proper operation. " They also show a photograph a plane being fued using the funnel.

You will also note, if you purchase a "Mr. Funnel" that there is a little piece of paper comes with it says it is not approved for aircraft use. What does that tell you?

Note that they say this funnel is "non-conductive". That doesn't mean you can't arc a spark around it, or through the fuel, or jump one from the outside of the plastic can to the fuel in the funnel.

The point is, if you have a NON-CONDUCTIVE device in betwixt the fuel and its destination, you are likely to produce a potential between those two. If that potential becomes great enough, it will arc. When it arcs, if there is fuel around or FUEL VAPORS, it will light off.

This has happened enough times, with predictable results, that you'd think the word was out.

A helicopter was burned to the ground a couple years ago, pumping fuel from a steel barrel where they used a "non conductive" funnel to filter the fuel.

Bummer.

Has anyone on this site witnessed lightning? That is precisely what can happen on a very small scale IF the potential becomes great enough between conductors which are separated by a "NON-CONDUCTIVE" material, such as a funnel or a plastic can.

MTV

Hi everyone,new to Backcountry Pilots and what a great site you have. I've been looking for a site like this for a long time. What I like about the site is it dosen't matter what type aircraft you have or fly. Glad to be on board.

I've been following the plastic gas jug issue and thought I would pass this along too:

Subject: SERIOUS: SHELL OIL COMMENTS ON CELL-PHONES
SHELL OIL COMMENTS

The Shell Oil Company recently issued a warning after three incidents in which mobile phones (cell phones) ignited fumes during fueling operations

In the first case, the phone was placed on the car's trunk lid during fueling; it rang and the ensuing fire destroyed the car and the gasoline pump.

In the second, an individual suffered severe burns to their face when fumes ignited as they answered a call while refueling their car.

And in the third, an individual suffered burns to the thigh and groin as fumes ignited when the phone, which was in their pocket, rang while they were fueling their car.


You should know that:
Mobile Phones can ignite fuel or fumes

Mobile phones that light up when switched on or when they ring release enough energy to provide a spark for ignition

Mobile phones should not be used in filling statio ns, or when fueling lawn mowers, boat! , Etc.

Mobile phones should not be used, or should be turned off, around other materials that generate flammable or explosive fumes or dust, (i.e. solvents, chemicals, gases, grain dust, etc.)

To sum it up, here are the: Four Rules for Safe Refu eling

1) Turn off engine
2) Don't smoke
3) Don't use your cell phone - leave it inside the vehicle or turn it off
4) Don't re-enter your vehicle during fueling

Bob Renkes of Petroleum Equipment Institute is working on a campaign to try and make people aware of fires as a result of"static electricity" at gas pumps . His company has researched 150 cases of these fires.


His results were very surprising:
1) Out of 150 cases, almost all of them were women.
2) Almost all cases involved the person getting back in their vehicle while the nozzle was still pumping gas. When finished, they went back to pull the nozzle out and the fi re started, as a result of static.
3) Most had on rubber-soled shoes.
4) Most men never get back in their vehicle unt il completely finished. This is why they are seldom involved in these types of fires.
5) Don't ever use cell phones when pumping gas
6) It is the vapors that come out of the gas that cause the fire, when connected with static charges.
7) There were 29 fires where the vehicle was re-entered and the nozzle was touched during refueling from a variety of makes and models. Some resulted in extensive damage to the vehicle, to the station, and to the customer.
Seventeen fires occurred before, during or immediately after the gas cap was removed and before fueling began.

Mr. Renkes stresses to NEVER get back into your vehicle while filling it with gas.

If you absolutely HAVE to get in your vehicle while the gas is pumping, make sure you get out, close the door TOUCHING THE METAL, before you ever pull the nozzle out. This way t he static from your body will be discharged before you ever remove the nozzle.

As I mentioned earlier, The Petroleum Equipment Institute, along with several other companies now, are really trying to make the public aware of this danger. You can find out more information by going to <http://www.pei.org/> . Once here, click in the center of the screen where it says "Stop Static".

Jr. Cub Builder questioned the static potential of Nomex fleece. I was the one who posted the message on the Nomex fleece made by Massif. Early on I noticed that the Nomex fleece didn't seem to produce any static when I removed the jacket or when I slid out of my airplane upolstery as a regular fleece jacket does. Wondering about this I ran a little test in the dark. A regular fleece jacket produces a lot of tiny sparks when removed or rubbed but the Nomex didn't generate any that I could see. It also doesn't attract lint and hair like the regular fleece does.

Mr. Helix

donknee,

Good post. I think a lot of folks fail to recognize how large a fuel vapor cloud surrounds a fueling operation.

A friend of mine in Fairbanks was draining fuel which he suspected of being contaminated from his airplane into a plastic bucket, on the ground, from the gascolator. The fuel was dropping a couple of feet into the bucket.

At one point, he peeked into the bucket, and said it was really weird--he could see flames in there. By the time he realized what was going on (about a half a nano second), the flames blew up out of the bucket, and ignited the fuel vapor cloud he was standing in. His arms and hands were not covered by clothing, and were burned pretty badly. He was lucky, though.

THe plane burned to the ground.

MTV

Good topic. Caution should always be used with flammable liquid, especially ones with a low Flash Point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

This is just an observation from reading this post.

Note that they say this funnel is "non-conductive". That doesn't mean you can't arc a spark around it, or through the fuel, or jump one from the outside of the plastic can to the fuel in the funnel.

From Mrfunnel FAQ

Q. When do I need a conductive model?
A. To comply with aviation and marine regulations, your refueling system needs to be grounded and only the conductive model should be used. The probability of a static fire is greater with gasoline but certainly possible with diesel. Also, the more fuel you pump, the more static is created by the fuel flowing across the surfaces getting into your tank. All Mr. Funnel models that are BLACK in body color are conductive.

Q. What makes the funnel conductive?
A. Carbon in injected into the raw materials and makes it just conductive enough to bleed off static electricity as it is generated by the refueling process when it is properly bonded or grounded.

I still think MTV is right about the sparking.

The point is, if you have a NON-CONDUCTIVE device in betwixt the fuel and its destination, you are likely to produce a potential between those two. If that potential becomes great enough, it will arc. When it arcs, if there is fuel around or FUEL VAPORS, it will light off.

Erick

I have a question----If I carry 6 gals. from the station in a red plastic jug and let it sit on the cement floor for a bit before climbing a wooden step ladder to poor into a black Mr. Funnel,is this still a big spark senario? Also if the jug is propped on the metal wing before tilting to pour will there still be spark potential?
Thanks, Marty

180 Marty,

Yep, and Yep.

Problem is, you'll never know just how much you can get away with and when it'll all go boom. That is really the rub.

If every time someone poured gas from a plastic can it blew up, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Problem is, it takes a good bit of fuel, and just the right conditions to create sufficient potential to make this happen.

So, you may get away with it 100 times, and on 101, kaboom, because the conditions were just slightly different that time. Dryer air, drug your feet more, more retained static on the gas can, more gas, etc.

That is the rub. You just don't know when it might happen, and you never know when you got away with it--just barely.

MTV

Like I said before..try loading fuel of any kind in a refinery with a plastic bucket anywhere on the truck, and see how far you get!! Those people are pretty "up" on what works and what doesn't. We also had to have long sleeves and cotton on.
I guess I don't see why it's such a huge deal to use metal cans? Yep, they're sort of a pain in the butt....but so are plastic ones. Maybe they weigh 2 or 3 pounds more than plastic, but if you're that close to not making it out of wherever you're at....you shouldn't be there in the first place.
I'd rather be safe than burned... that just doesn't sound or look like fun to me. Just because everyone (almost) gets away with using plastic cans, doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do.
Like MTV said earlier, this time of year (cold weather, low humidity) is especially prone to static charges, so this thread is very timely.
Your aircraft can build quite a charge just flying through a little moisture... (just ask anyone that's had to grab a longline from a helicopter that's flown through some rain, if they haven't already touched ground with the hook) so it doesn't necessarily have to come just from the plastic can... but put the two together, and it could be a bad deal.
JH

I poured fuel in with a metal can yesterday for the first time in 25 yrs.
Marty

180Marty wrote:I poured fuel in with a metal can yesterday for the first time in 25 years.
Marty

Yeah, it's been awhile for me too. Trouble is that the metal cans leak a little bit, when in the back of the car, while driving to the plane, and then car stinks like gas. (How safe is that?) My old plastic cans don't vent fumes during transport. And what about the metal cans that have the plastic filler tube on them?

Can somebody recommend a source for gas cans that don't leak or vent into the vehicle while transporting 'em? Maybe we could get a slew of 'em with the BCP logo on 'em?!

Thanks for the heads up to all of us here. Berk

Great Post.
Another example how lucky most of us are.
Its hard to imagine seeing dangerous procedures for so many years and not having more problems.

Thats one huge avatar

I had to wack his avatar. Sorry Winger, it's not the size that matters.

120 pixels wide or less.

Thanks for the help, I didn't know what pixel width meant,
like comparing to a dimension or ratio.
I'll try the thumbnail, that's info a guy can use.

I have a can similar to this that I use arround the ranch. Check the sight for other cans. They only vent when the gas expands or maybe just when you decend.

http://www.omarksafety.com/category.cfm ... as_Can.cfm

Tim

Tim- Those "Justrite" cans are OSHA approved and common on construction sites. By holding the top handle, when you tip the can it opens the spout and vent automatically. Depending on your style (the type of funnel, ladder, etc.) this might work good. If you have to hold the funnel with one hand... it might be a trick. The cap is just retained by spring tension, not as tight as a screw cap. It is a good sturdy, steel container.