Lousy weather for being in the mountains. Maybe the weather didn't have anything to do with it. Either way, sad to see.

http://m.localnews8.com/news/small-plac ... e/32318810

I missed that the accident was yesterday, my bad. The weather was actually pretty good yesterday. I flew with a friend to Mackay and thought it would be a pretty good day to play in the mountains.

My wife is marketing manager for a mountain bike company, and one of her pro athletes that they sponsor was on this plane. Sad day. Thoughts with all.

more info...

fully loaded c210...approx 530 p.m....windy on departure...possible tailwind...appears to have horsed a/c off the ground...settled into some trees...hit opposing bank....dangitall....4 souls lost...pilot i believe was owner of diamond d guest ranch...
thoughts and prayers for those left behind...lets all be on our game 110% out there...

I think the take off was earlier than that, in the heat of the day. If so, that can make a well loaded T210 into a real dog at 5500' MSL, possibly well over 7000' DA, trying to depart on a 2500' strip. I understand terrain makes it a one way in, opposite way out strip, and any tailwind would make it effectively shorter. Sad.

Cary

If what you say is true... should have waited a few hours (or enjoyed the ranch).

Wow,
I just read that 2 of the people involved were there as employees of a solar power outfit, looking to do an install for the owner. That kind of hits home, as in could have been me doing the same. The wx where I have been working pretty much non stop the last week or so, has not made me bitch about the work. More like, crap wx, might as well be working. Typical spring conditions. Right now looks the best I've seen, and I am off to work again, this crash puts that complaint in the proper context. Sad deal.

I find it interesting that Sand R thought it was too windy and let the caretaker pronounce them dead.As expected, no flight plan:

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/town_county/prominent-teton-valley-citizens-killed-in-plane-crash/article_2b9b1553-e403-55a6-b186-611c82e853bc.html

Nosedragger wrote:I find it interesting that Sand R thought it was too windy and let the caretaker pronounce them dead.As expected, no flight plan:

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/town_county/prominent-teton-valley-citizens-killed-in-plane-crash/article_2b9b1553-e403-55a6-b186-611c82e853bc.html

“In those mountain canyons, those air currents can change dramatically and can throw those little aluminum planes around,”

Sigh….

SixTwoLeemer wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:I find it interesting that Sand R thought it was too windy and let the caretaker pronounce them dead.As expected, no flight plan:

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/town_county/prominent-teton-valley-citizens-killed-in-plane-crash/article_2b9b1553-e403-55a6-b186-611c82e853bc.html

“In those mountain canyons, those air currents can change dramatically and can throw those little aluminum planes around,”

Sigh….

Such expertise from the SO! Of course, wind can play a part, but my money is still on too heavy an airplane on too short a strip with the DA too high. The pilot had pretty fair credentials for ordinary flying (private pilot ASEL, AMEL, IR, type cert'd in a Lear), but as we all know, that doesn't necessarily equate with safe flying in the back country.

Cary

Very sad. My heart goes out to their families and friends...

Be careful out there folks... your loved ones need you to come home safe from your adventures.

I expect you are right, Cary. I expect the FAA will look good, pronounce the pilot at fault, and mention DA, load, and tailwind as contributing factors. What irks me is that they will not take any flack for not teaching the basic low ground effect takeoff. If he took off down drainage and stayed in low ground effect, a controlled landing/crash should have been possible somewhere down there if a zoom over any obstacles was not possible. Where does the belief that we need altitude come from? We are going down hill. If things turn bad, we can just continue down hill until things get better or we have to put it down under control. Water never flows uphill. Any drainage will lead us to lower terrain. If we don't pull back on the stick the airplane will continue to fly all the way to the probably survivable landing/crash. The rudder will never fail, so we can put the nose where we want.

At some point we may have to accept that we will land/crash. "We need to be quick, but not hurry." John Wooden

Upper Loon is a little bit technical, but certainly not dewey or simonds....although the local pros are damn careful on departure...once u launch about the only good put down spot would be loon creek...my dads old place is about 10 miles downstream...a closed strip but would do in a pinch...ive watched locals with big 206T loads push their birds as far back as possible before blasting off, brakes locked for a mini then nose up till lift off, then push the nose over and let her build some speed...upper loon is both beautiful and a bit challenging...i feel way bad about this crash and all involved...the folks at the diamond D are really nice people, and always willing to help motorcycle guys/pilots when in a pinch...hope they get thru this ok and would be willing to help with anything they might need....

Very sad.

I've had issues coming out of the strip twice. The first time was as a passenger flying with one of the most experienced 135 pilots back there. We took off light in a 185 and ended up dodging terrain for a good long 15 seconds or more. He had left a plane on the valley floor years before in the same area. The second time was a few years later and I was flying a far less capable plane, and had 600+ feet under me that turned into something on the order of 50 feet in just a few seconds and stayed that way for quite a while. The common factor was stronger upper winds at the ridgetops.

Nobody knows what happened, and conditions may have been very different. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has had a similar experience at this strip or the others in tbe canyon in the past. I just wish everyone could make it back home.

I've been in there every year for as long as I've been going up to Idaho...It's one of my regular fishing stops with great fly fishing... never had a problem landing or taking off but then I'm either by myself or my son is with me. ... once again... fly early in the day and late in the evening...it certainly isn't a difficult strip and it is definitely long enough for most especially a 210 but then how heavy he was and winds are going to be a factor...

Ya...i guess so...an empty 210 would prob. work...a loaded one with that wing, not this kid.....really small tires...lots of weight.....possible tailwind....

This is very sad. Best wishes to all affected by this tragedy.

I have no idea what happened, but my curiosity drove me to look at the numbers.

I found the high temperature, barometer and dew point for last Friday in Challis and calculated a 6958 ft density altitude at the heat of the day.

I looked at a POH for a 1982 Turbocharged 210 and referenced the takeoff charts to find that at gross weight the T210 takes 2479 feet to clear a 50 footer. Downstream takeoff is pretty free from obstacles, but add a little soft-field/heavy plane/small tire drag, unfavorable winds and a small downdraft in to the mix and what little margin existed could have evaporated in an instant.

Regardless of what happened, decent margins in your aeronautical planning and decision making are ready to go to work for you when confronted with conditions unaccounted for, which are almost certain when operating in back country environments.

Scolopax wrote:

I looked at a POH for a 1982 Turbocharged 210 and referenced the takeoff charts to find that at gross weight the T210 takes 2479 feet to clear a 50 footer. Downstream takeoff is pretty free from obstacles, but add a little soft-field/heavy plane/small tire drag, unfavorable winds and a small downdraft in to the mix and what little margin existed could have evaporated in an instant.

Just ran the numbers for my NA Bonanza. To clear 50 feet the book says 2250 feet at 75 degrees at gross. Paved level runway, no wind. The grass runway probably evens out with the 30 foot elevation drop.

Math and POH are only a beginning, and can certainly help make the decision to wait until better conditions. Mistakes will be made, however. If we use the basic low ground effect takeoff on all but ITO, we will have the extra low ground effect energy when things don't go as math and POH say they will. Aircraft fly and accelerate much quicker in low ground effect.

When taking off downhill or spraying downhill, it is hard to stay in low, effective ground effect. This is especially true when there are obstructions at the end of the landing zone or spray run. This, however, may be the very place where we most need the extra energy of low ground effect.

I have used the low ground effect takeoff for all takeoffs, except ITOs, for the last 35 years. Only a few times has it saved my life. I still believe it is worth it.