I am moving this over from the Landmark mid air thread.

As you can see below, I am not totally sure that ADS-B buys back country pilots much other than weather from the satellite. The Mountain and Intermountain West ground station system is "thin" to be polite. I fly out of an airport that is 2 mi within the KSEA 30 mile veil so in six years I have to have the IN and out capabilities to the tune of several thousands of Dollars.

What am I missing that benefits me in the ADS-B system other than weather?

See last couple of comments from Landmark:

TomD wrote:
<quote>If nothing else, this tagent on this thread has helped changed my mind about the ADS-B mandate.<quote>


I am still wrapping my head abound the ADS-B system.

I thought the ground station build out was what was needed to make the system truly functional. I know there is a huge hole in the ground station system in the Mountain and Intermountain West. FAA wants to keep separation from the big iron in congested areas but I did not see much gain for the back country.

You Alaska guys jump in here.

TD


FAA says the ADS-B GBT (Ground Based Transmitter) system is now complete. What you see is what you get.

Now, bear in mind that, theoretically, any ADS-B in equipped airplane SHOULD receive data directly from any ADS-B out equipped airplane......no GBT required......yours talks to his and vice versa.

I've spent a thousand hours or so in ADS-B equipped airplanes, and to me, the traffic feature is the least valuable function of that system, particularly in really busy airspace.

Opinions....we all got one, and like assholes, mine' the only one that don't stink.

MTV

That sounds disappointing.

I thought the -B stood for Backcountry??

I am not looking forward to forking out $$$$ for something I don't need.

Works pretty good in our end of SE AK. Darn near all the air taxis have it, and thats about 98% of todays air traffic. I personally have 0 time PIC behind it, but some as an interested right seat passenger. I'd say the traffic information is the best part. I will have it by next Spring.

Basically nonexistent in Bristol Bay. Never been in a plane with it, commercial or private.

gbflyer wrote:Works pretty good in our end of SE AK. Darn near all the air taxis have it, and thats about 98% of todays air traffic. I personally have 0 time PIC behind it, but some as an interested right seat passenger. I'd say the traffic information is the best part. I will have it by next Spring.

The version of Capstone available in Southeast Alaska is satellite based, not GBT based, I believe. That's how they got it approved for low MEA's in big terrain....a very different system than the rest of the world has gotten.

ADS-B in the lower 48 (and on the Yukon Delta, where it was originally tried) is based on ground based transmitters, not satellite relay to the user. Big difference in the mountains, when it comes to the PRODUCTS available from the system........like radar and metars, tafs, etc.

BUT, as I noted before, the traffic function, while it is also relayed through the GBT, is information exchanged from airplane to airplane. So, all you need is line of sight to the other airplane. That is assuming you have both ADS-B IN and ADS-B OUT equipment. And, a display screen big enough for you to be able to decipher all those little blips amongst the terrain.

Traffic CAN be really valuable in certain places and at certain times. In busy airspace, though, in my experience, you spend a lot of time looking at a display for traffic, then looking out the window to try to find that traffic, then back to the screen for an update, etc. A really big screen is helpful.

Bear in mind, though, that there are always going to be NON-ADS-B equipped airplanes out there (don't believe it? Do a little online poll of your flying buddies and ask how many have a 406 ELT), so another risk (and I saw this for real in NW Minnesota) is getting complacent, assuming that the ADS-B will "protect you" from mid airs.

You still have to look out the windows, and the more you're looking out the windows, the better, in my opinion.

MTV

Instruments, doodads, ADS whatever's...flight following???

I'm planning a backcountry pilot voyage to the moon and loading our super cub up with all this crap, it will weigh 2000 lbs when we get done but boy oh boy will I have lots of instruments and computer thingy's

Troy Hamon wrote:Basically nonexistent in Bristol Bay. Never been in a plane with it, commercial or private.

Bristol Bay Air bought my old Sled (N9943M) and it is equipped with first generation Capstone gear.

I used several Capstone equipped airplanes in Kotzebue and Deadhorse, 43M being one of them. That far north, and away from the ground stations in the Y-K Delta, the ADS-B data link info was unusable for me. And.... Big Brother in ANC wasn't able to see what I was doing, either.

Although Hageland's, Servant Air, and I think Grant had a few Capstone airplanes up there too, and I could see them on the screen with the MX20. But that was strictly airplane to airplane data, and nothing more than a novelty for us. We (Part 135 guys) had our own bootleg ATC system, and everybody always knew where everybody else was, and what they were doing.

Gump

My iPad Mini (and of course iPhone) have cell radios with data plans. This allows me to receive Foreflight's default weather whenever I have a data capable cell signal. This is generally 3,500 feet AGL and below, and of course within range of a cell tower. In the lower 48 you can't fly too far out of cell tower range for very long, even in the west. Notice I didn't say cell service, I said cell tower, if you have a crappy provider change to a better one.

My SQ-2
I don't fly high enough to be able to receive ADS-B signals, so ADS-B is of no value for me in this plane. It does not have a transponder and I certainly don't see myself installing one or ADS-B. When I fly this plane through Canada I purchase a short term Canada cell/data plan so I can continue to get weather, Internet, etc. Flying the ALCAN highway route I have enough connectivity to stay as current as I need.

My C185
I only fly high AGL when forced/encouraged to by winds and distance. I'd say 90% of the time I'm low enough to receive cell signals. I just came back from a trip from Texas to Northern California and back and spent a lot of time higher then cell coverage. In this instance I relied on ADS-B for weather. Once I was in the mountains, even though I was high enough, I had prolonged periods with no ADS-B coverage.

As far as traffic display, since I only have ADS-B in, I don't see a lot, when I do I consider it bonus information. Twice I've been alerted via ADS-B to traffic I hadn't seen that was on a potential collision course. Once was traffic from behind, same altitude, but faster then me. Of course had I known he was there (without ADS-B) I would assume he'd see and avoid me since I couldn't see him. But since I now knew he was there I descended a thousand feet and watched him fly over me. The second was a low wing aircraft higher then I and descending from my right that I hadn't seen. He certainly never saw me as he continued his descent and path right at me. I descended to stay out of his path and he eventually passed directly overhead, only about 300 feet above me.

For me and the type of flying I do a cell signal and Foreflight's default weather is of more value then ADS-B. I don't see that changing unless the FAA does something to improve coverage in the mountains, and that just isn't going to happen. Of course in 2020 it's a moot point because I will have to install ADS-B out in the C185 as she does see flights very occasionally to Class C & B airports.

I think the system in Juneau works same as everywhere else. The only sats are GPS.

Delete

MTV

flightlogic wrote:I think the system in Juneau works same as everywhere else. The only sats are GPS.

That is my understanding as well, but I could be mistaken.

The FAA came up with this idea before the explosion of tablet based navigation, weather, flight planning etc. I keep hoping someone sees the light on this ADS-B thing and we can comply with the 2020 rule via portable, reliable, and relatively cheap tablets. I'm not wagering a large or even small sum of money on this outcome though.

I keep hoping someone sees the light on this ADS-B thing and we can comply with the 2020 rule via portable, reliable, and relatively cheap tablets.

You must have been partaking of some of that fine legal Washington sativa. That is just way too reasonable!

It should not surprise you that you still do not see much traffic if you have ADSB-in receivers today. this is because of two reasons that will undoubtedly change over time:

#1 you only recieve traffic from 2 sources: ground-based FAA towers transmitting TIS-B or air to air from other planes that have equipped with ADSB-out: either with a mode s transponder or with a separate UAT transmitter (like freeflight systems) connected to your GPS.

#2 when receiving traffic from ground based transmitters - you have to be BOTH within line of sight radio range of the tower to get the signal AND there has to be other traffic in your area (either under radar surveillance or xmitting ADS-B out)

The #s of aircraft will undoubtedly rise as we get closer to 2020, and over the next 5 years you will see a lot more and more traffic. The costs will go down. ADS-B out now is in the range of $3000 using portable gps which won't be compliant in 2020. For about $4000 you can augment your current mode-c transponder with a fully TSO, certifed gps UAT system which will be compliant past 2020.

The critical thing (to me) for backcountry operations is the air-to-air capability. If you have ADS-B out and are transmitting in the backcountry - even if you don't have line of sight to the FAA towers - we can still see each other. It is for this reason that I think we as a pilot community should be in favor of voluntarily adopting ADS-B out. It's not required, however.

I don't think it's correct to say the FAA is 100% done w/ ADS-B - for it's still has projects to augment in mountain terrain - like here in Colorado for Wide Area Multilateration - though it is certainly focused on the revenue operations around the bigger airports for skiing: steamboat, eagle, aspen. But the cost of adding in repeater stations is not nearly like putting in a radar station. Clearly we aren't on their radar screen however.

Believe it or not, there are plenty of backcountry strips that fall in these areas. My hope is someday we'll get recreational use statutes on our books so they can be opened up and publicized. A lot of Colorado has coverage down to 1800AGL, and lower.

Anyone know where the tower closest to Johnson Creek is exactly located?

http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/implementation/programs/adsb/wsa/cmap/

There is one in Boise not sure yet if there is one closer. Might find out tomorrow I'm headed up to that area. Just got set up with UAT in and out.

Anyone know where the tower closest to Johnson Creek is exactly located?

From the handy dandy FAA 2013 map it looks as if the nearest (most southerly one in Idaho) one is a bit South of Lewiston. No more definitive info than that as far as I can find.

Looks as if ground stations supposedly cover the panhandle. Since the ground stations are line of sight ( I think ) one would have to depend upon plane to plane info for any air to air locations. Bottom line, we are back to the Mark I eyeball coupled w/ the radio as our best tool.

TD

Here's a map of all the ADS-B tower locations

Swindler wrote:The FAA came up with this idea before the explosion of tablet based navigation, weather, flight planning etc. I keep hoping someone sees the light on this ADS-B thing and we can comply with the 2020 rule via portable, reliable, and relatively cheap tablets. I'm not wagering a large or even small sum of money on this outcome though.

ADS-B is primarily a radar/transponder update, not something that tablets can replace. Getting weather info is almost an afterthought. So I'm not sure what there is to see the light on in any meaningful sense.

Not sure I have anything but an opinion in the benefits of the ADSB program for "backcountry" flying especially out here in Southwestern AK. Contrary to my flying buddy's comment above there is actually a fair amount of " fish-finder" flying around up here but almost all of them are commercial. i did want to share the following experience because it is the kind of real world interaction that rationalizes the system…the kind we will never see in the papers or online.

I have had two experiences with other pilots out there seeing my transponder blip on their screen. The second one was just a few weeks ago climbing through 800 feet out of Dillingham with the proverbial "broken" ceiling that was not vary broken. It seems said fast moving twin had a need to descend and my little informationless dot was in the way. They made a call on radio and it took me a few moments to realize it was me they were looking for. I was able to give them a position readback that most likely made them feel better but also made me really start thinking about how cool it was that the technology might have prevented something really stupid.

I have a bunch of other ideas about the ADSB system and its potential but its time to get out and do battle with the rain, bugs, and a leaky 985 mag drive seal…

Rocket

ps. Phil, was that you at 5NK in the SQ-2? pm me next time you are out here: warm dry hanger...etc