Backcountry Pilot

[whee offline]

The search and rescue thread got me thinking about what my expectations are from friends if I were in a SAR situation so I thought I'd start a new thread and see what your thoughts are.

A while back I was at home watching the SPOT pages of a few people when I see the help icon up on one of the maps. I check BCP and see that I'm not the first to see it but no one is sure if anyone had responded. I'm thinking, "ok this person is a long way from home, it is likely most of the people on the SPOT notification list are from their local area so can't really do much, it would take me 2.5 hours to get to where the help message was sent from, I can't land there, there are BCPers much closer but I don't know if they are aware of the situation, so what should I do." I went back and forth for a while then decided I'd rather get there and find out I'm not needed than sit and watch the computer only to find out everyone else made the same decision. I threw together the gear I thought I would need and was headed out the when I decided to check BCP one more time. By this time a couple hours had passed and there was a post saying help was on the way. At this point I figured I wasn't needed so I stayed home.

I've thought about this several times since and haven't really figured out what I'd do if I were in that situation again. I know if I were on someone's notification list I'd be out the door right away and if I had a SPOT I would expect the friends on my list to do the same.

I guess I have two questions here. What do you expect from the people on your notification list? What do you hope the response would be from people following your SPOT page but not on your notification list?

If I had a SPOT I would expect those on my notification list to drop everything and come help. I wouldn't expect anything from those not on my notification list.

[SkySteve offline]

I've been wondering the same thing. I don't have a SPOT but have been wanting to get one. I do always let someone know where I am going and that I will check in when I can, within a predetermined time frame. I usually let another pilot know where I will be. I pick a pilot with a plane and the necessary skills to fly in mountainous, desert and backcountry areas that I fly in so they do have the ability to help me if I need help. If I do not report in within a reasonable time I know they will make a SAR phone call AND head to their plane to come help.

I have also recently been educating myself on the differences between SPOT and PLB (Personal Location Beacon). Each is on a completely different satellite system. Now I am wondering if it might not be better to get a PLB rather than a SPOT. Any experience and advice out there?

[RanchPilot offline]

Timely topic. If we can still lose a plane for 5 days within 15 miles of the departure airport, I could darn sure get lost in a lot of the country I fly (it's going to take me awhile to get the details of that scene in Utah out of my mind).

What is the difference between a SPOT and a PLB? I'm pretty religious about turning on my SPOT every time I fly, and I figure I can hit the 911 button if I'm still in good enough shape after the wreck to do so. I leave the SPOT on the dash, however, and I've worried that it could get broken/ejected/out of reach in a crash.

How is a PLB different than the 911 button on the SPOT, and is it worth considering carrying one on my person so I can reach it even if I'm immobilized? The other issue is that both the SPOT and the PLB require the user to activate the alarm, as compared to a new ELT which will, theoretically, activate itself even if I'm knocked silly.

I have a SPOT. Should I consider a PLB or a new ELT as my next purchase?

[Matt 7GCBC offline]

The short answer is you need to have at least one designated coordinator.
My SPOT help message, gives the phone numbers of two people that should be called for coordination. That way you don't have a bunch of folks trying to help out in an inefficient way. I like to think it would increase the response time in that you don't have people saying "I wonder if I need to go or not". They have the number to call for coordination. The problem is that person other than the wife to call is a flying buddy and sometimes we are out at the same time...
It is important that the coordinator understands their responsibilities. I had a family member that I put on a flight plan as the emergency contact. My brother was deployed and my wife with me, so my normal peeps were unavailable. The family member is a pilot, was given my spot page and knew they were on the flight plan. I was delayed routing around weather and when flight service called the family member offered no assistance in checking the spot page for continued movement. Bottom line: spell it out as not everyone puts the tasks/technology together.
SPOT allows you to have different list. So I have a ski flying list. A summer list and an Alaska list. Your coordinator should have knowledge of charter operators, FBOs, and other appropriate resources (such as posting on BCP, Supercub, etc) for the area you are travelling through.
I thinks it's important for you to put the folks on your HELP list on your OK list. That way if the problem is solved, you can call off the troops.
Often the spouse is a great coordinator for us recreational pilots, but enlisting a couple trusted friends or family is important for those times when the spouse is along.
In Alaska, when you fill out your Master Flight Plan Form, you can enter your SPOT page. If you are overdue, the FSS will log onto your SPOT page and check where you are and if you are still moving along your route appropriately. If things appear good, they will NOT start further search procedures. The only problem I had with this is that when you go out of the area where you filed your Master Flight Plan, they do not apparently have the same immediate access as the form is on file at the local FSS. example Kenai vs. Juneau. Don't know if it is all centralized now or if you need to file at multiple FSSs? Lockheed Martin doesn't have a clue and I have not heard that they are interested in doing anything similar, unfortunately.
Relating to the recent thread on failed rescue, my kids were taught by age 4 or 5 how to activate the SPOT, PLB and to use the Sat phone, although the last was the most complicated. By 6 they'll know how to use your iPhone better than you will... The post also reminded me to go over again, soon, the operation of the ELT with the kids. In the citabria it's right next to the rear seat and they know. Haven't gone over the remote ELT switch on the dash and the reminder of it's location in the baggage for a couple of years. Good reminders and peace of mind knowing your family can take care of themselves if you become unable.
Looking forward to hearing how others manage their operations.
Hey Jon, OK if I put you on my Eastern Idaho SPOT list?
Matt

[whee offline]

Hey Jon, OK if I put you on my Eastern Idaho SPOT list?

Absolutely.

I like the coordinator idea; keeps things organized and people will know if they need to go or not.

[Matt 7GCBC offline]

The short answer is you need to have at least one designated coordinator.
My SPOT help message, gives the phone numbers of two people that should be called for coordination. That way you don't have a bunch of folks trying to help out in an inefficient way. I like to think it would increase the response time in that you don't have people saying "I wonder if I need to go or not". They have the number to call for coordination. The problem is that my person, other than the wife, to call is a flying buddy and sometimes we are out at the same time...
It is important that the coordinator understands their responsibilities. I had a family member that I put on a flight plan as the emergency contact. My brother was deployed and my wife with me, so my normal peeps were unavailable. The family member is a pilot, has my spot page and knew they were on the flight plan. I was delayed routing around weather and when flight service called, the family member offered no assistance in checking the spot page for continued movement. Bottom line: spell it out as not everyone puts the tasks/technology together.
SPOT allows you to have different list. So I have a ski flying list. A summer list and an Alaska list. I wish they would allow more as I need a motorbike and travel list too. Your coordinator should have knowledge of charter operators, FBOs, and other appropriate resources (such as posting on BCP, Supercub, etc) for the area you are travelling through.
I thinks it's important for you to put the folks on your HELP list on your OK list. That way if the problem is solved, you can call off the troops.
Often the spouse is a great coordinator for us recreational pilots, but enlisting a couple trusted friends or family is important for those times when the spouse is along.
In Alaska, when you fill out your Master Flight Plan Form, you can enter your SPOT page. If you are overdue, the FSS will log onto your SPOT page and check where you are and if you are still moving along your route appropriately. If things appear good, they will NOT start further search procedures. The only problem I had with this is that when you go out of the area where you filed your Master Flight Plan, they do not apparently have the same immediate access as the form is on file at the local FSS. example Kenai vs. Juneau. Don't know if it is all centralized now or if you need to file at multiple FSSs? Lockheed Martin doesn't have a clue and I have not heard that they are interested in doing anything similar in the lower 48, unfortunately.
Relating to the recent thread on failed rescue, my kids were taught by age 4 or 5 how to activate the SPOT, PLB and to use the Sat phone, although the last was the most complicated, but doable with the important numbers at the top of the phone list. By 6 they'll know how to use your iPhone better than you will... The post also reminded me to go over again, soon, the operation of the ELT with the kids. In the citabria it's right next to the rear seat and they know. Haven't gone over the remote ELT switch on the dash and the reminder of it's location in the baggage for a couple of years. Good reminders and peace of mind knowing your family can take care of themselves if you become unable.
Looking forward to hearing how others manage their operations.
Hey Jon, OK if I put you on my Eastern Idaho SPOT list?
Matt

[CamTom12 offline]

Had a couple of friends recently activate their spot on a fly-in hunting trip. Prior to departure, the messages were pre-loaded, lists built, and specific instructions given to specific people should a help message get sent.

They flew to an area and tried to land to look for sign on a pre-hunt scouting trip. Nosed over and prop strike, but not full turtle. Hit the help button but had no way to explain that all they needed was a mechanic and prop flown in to ferry the aircraft out for follow-on maintenance. So their full emergency plan got activated.

Excessive for the situation? Not in my opinion. The situation could have been worse and if it had the proper notification was made! If he'd been able to send a specific message out a lot of excess spinning up could have been avoided though.

They do make a spot you can pair to your smart phone to send specific messages if you need to. They're more expensive and I think the service is too but my buddies' situation makes me feel like it might be worth it. I'm actually going to get one of those and a solar charger one of these days for just in case.

[RanchPilot offline]

On my SPOT, my "bring horses and tools, and don't tell anybody" list is different than my "tell everybody and come fast" list.

For the same reason you point out, though, I invested in a used sat-phone (only paid $60 for it), and I have a pay-as-you-go plan where I don't pay any monthly fee. Two way comm can make a big difference, under the right circumstances.

I now own all this crap cuz I didn't have it previously when I might coulda used it...

[Bonanza Man offline]

That's why I changed to the inReach. Does all the things the SPOT does but is a two way device. You can send and receive texts and emails. If you need to hit the 911 come and get me button you can message back and forth with the responders so they can tailor their response to your needs. If you don't communicate with them they will simply respond like a SPOT 911 message. Unit costs $250 to buy and about twice as much per year for subscription. Tracking page is better as it shows track, altitude and ground speed, none of which SPOT does.

[bush master offline]

The wife and I carry the spot and a PLB attached to our belt. I have heard of the spot flying out from a broken windshield. I attached a heavy cord to the spot which has a loop to put around the heater knob.

[tdukerich offline]

In the soaring community here in AZ we rely on Spot Messenger a lot. Cell coverage is minimal in the remote areas we fly and landouts do happen. Typically we fly with tracking on so that flight path history can be seen in the event that something happens and you can't press Help or 911. At least we can narrow down a search if it ever came to needed one. I have the 1st generation Spot and fly all season long with tracking on and the batteries last the whole year.

For our local club we have everyone's Spot web page link accessible from a members only page. With thousands of BCP members, I doubt that would be useful. I wouldn't mind having my Spot URL in my BCP member profile if it could be entered.

http://share.findmespot.com/shared/face ... 4xM3UhvEbz

Tom
C170B & ASW20C

[Troy Hamon offline]

My help message is pre-set based on the mission. If I'm hunting, it means that I have no emergency but need help either packing or hauling an animal, or can't get the plane started/have a non-emergency airworthiness issue. Whenever somebody can get here to assist is fine, and I'll talk to them about the details when they do arrive, whether it is finding meat packers or helping me charge my battery.

For any situation where I need any emergency response of any sort, the spot SOS button would be employed. Help is non-emergency. And all my help messages are sent as texts to my wife's phone and she is briefed ahead of time on each mission.

[mountainmatt offline]

I have some pretty good insight on this, so I'll chime in.

First, thanks Whee for caring about BCP members and being ready to take action if needed.

Second, I recommend writing down what exactly your messages say. My custom message stated: "No physical injuries, mechanical problem." My help message stated: "HELP, non life threatening problem." In a true, unknown, emergency situation these read very differently. Had I known what my custom message stated, I would have used that, but the mind starts to race and help was pushed.

Third, I recommend having a coordinator that UNDERSTANDS flying and all the potential problems that may arise. Both my Brother and Dad are firemen, but they DO NOT understand backcountry flying and the problems that can happen. Also, your wife is probably not the best coordinator. BUT, having your WIFE on the HELP message is important, having her find out from frantic family members is not a good outcome.... DOH! (In my defense, I had changed it for the Peru trip as she was with me the entire trip, but I forgot to change it back a month later.)

Fourth, The help message WILL act as the tracking feature, I assume the SOS feature works this way too. In this, it WILL send out a message every 10 minutes until you change it. I had hit the help message, laid it on the plane and then an hour later saw it was still broadcasting the help message so I then hit the okay button. Well, in this time it sent 6 messages and looked as if I the problem was greater and I was repeating to hit help again and again.

Fifth.... STAY CALM and have a clear mind before you start making rash decisions. Regardless if the SPOT works or not, it is best to carry on with the situation as best as you can with what your have. We were also able to use the A/C radio to talk with a P210 headed to JC to relay the distress message and our intentions (The antenna was on the bottom of the A/C and undamaged). And for what it's worth, The SPOT help button was pushed around the 1.5hr mark since the mishap, and after an hour of trying, the A/C radio message was relayed around the 2hr mark.

The SPOT worked as advertised and was a useful too. But as any tool, it must be used properly. Having a plan should the need ever arise is extremely important in non-life threatening emergencies. Now had there been injuries, the SOS/911 button would have been pushed and the chopper would have pick us up.

As a side note.... the book Deep Survival by Gonzales was another great tool for the mind and helped me with good decision making after bad decisions were made. I highly recommend reading it for anyone that ventures off the beaten path into the great outdoors (not just backcountry pilots).

MM

[bumper offline]

Spot got an early start and so is the defacto standard tracking device. I don't own one, but have played with them lots and watched the tracks of gliders at SoaringNV (all their gliders use Spots). There are two main problems with Spot, simplex communications (send only, no recieve . . . sort of like yelling outside for help when you can't see anyone near and hoping you are heard), and spotty communications reliability.

Now on that latter point I acknowledge there are lots of variables, not the least of which are mounting position and satellite location. Still, even with Spot mounting optimized in a glider, it seems one can expect to miss as much as 10% of the locatiion fixes. The Spot 2 tries to cover for this by resending some previous fixes with each of its new 10 minute interval attempts.

The Spot sends only location, no altitude, speed, and heading . . . a real shortcoming when you are watching glider tracks and wondering if he can make it home, or if one needs to get ready to hop in the tow plane to fetch him, or drag out the trailer to do a retrieve.

Delorme's InReach is much better on all counts. More reliable sat communication, two-way, so it knows if a message didn't get through and will repeat it. Text messaging from anywhere in the world, so you can let help or rescue know exactly what's needed. And rescue can communicate back as well.

InReach costs more, but is still IMO worth it. I may be only one of a handful of people who agree, but my butt is priceless. Just a shame that so many are already commited to Spot when InReach is clearly better.

Disclaimer (no affiliation with either), I tow and fly gliders out of Minden, NV, and out in the desert cell coverage is mostly not happening.

[CamTom12 offline]

I've never heard of the inReach before reading this thread. I'd already priced out the smartphone spot and sold the wife on it. Last night I ran a in-home sales pitch for the inReach. What sold me is that it's a 2-way device, that adds a level of clarity in communications in my mind.

So, I retract my previous statement about getting a smart-phone spot one of these days. We're going to get an inReach instead.

[Bonanza Man offline]

I've never heard of the inReach before reading this thread. I'd already priced out the smartphone spot and sold the wife on it. Last night I ran a in-home sales pitch for the inReach. What sold me is that it's a 2-way device, that adds a level of clarity in communications in my mind.

So, I retract my previous statement about getting a smart-phone spot one of these days. We're going to get an inReach instead.

I used the SPOT Connect for one season before getting the inReach. The inReach blows it out of the water. The SPOT Connect eats batteries like there's no tomorrow. It's bluetooth to your smartphone is harder to use than the inReach. The SPOT Connect requires the use of a smartphone for everything except the 911 button. The inReach has buttons on the unit so your phone is not required. It's only required to send/receive custom messages. The Spot Connect can only send messages to folks in your contact list of the SPOT app, this app must be updated while you still have cell service. The inReach simply uses the regular contact list of your phone. Additionally you can type in any email address or cell phone number while you're sitting in the woods which means you can help somebody you come across in the field.

[OregonMaule offline]

NUMBER 1 What I expect when I push the SPOT help button? You BCP guys make sure the government goes to where the signal is coming from.

I consider my SPOT a toy. That being said it has worked over 98% of the time. It is piece of mind for my wife and mother. If I splatter somewhere and am dead it will help bring closer to my family.

I don't plan on the help feature or 911 on the SPOT. If it works fine. If my plane won't start (in the middle of nowhere) I will use the 911 air taxi button but more importantly I will use my 406PLB. I pay good money to the government for SAR. They can jolly well send a chopper to air taxi me out. Then I will get my AP and we will bring the plane home. If it is wrecked I'll call my insurance company and they can bring it home.

I worked the fire department for 32 years. No emergency responder will ever fault you for using a 406PLB or what ever if you are stuck in the back country and looking at a multi day walk out. They would rather fly right to you, because you have a 406PLB, than have to do a full blown SAR event.

If I had a mechanical problem and needed SAR air taxi service. I would activate the 406PLB. The SPOT would alternate 911, help then OK. 911, help then OK. Repeat. The 911 button ONLY!!! calls the government not BCP!

If the government official has half a brain he/she would conclude Robby OK but needs our help. I know that is a lot to ask of most of the emergency managers I worked for.

What is on your person is survival gear, everything else is camping gear. THEREFORE 406PLB IN MY POCKET!


G'Day

[CamTom12 offline]

What is on your person is survival gear, everything else is camping gear.

This is a 100% true statement. With luck and post-accident sense, you'll be able to get to the "camping gear," but plan to survive without it.

[Chazdevil offline]

Deleted

[aktahoe1 offline]

Had a couple of friends recently activate their spot on a fly-in hunting trip. Prior to departure, the messages were pre-loaded, lists built, and specific instructions given to specific people should a help message get sent.

They flew to an area and tried to land to look for sign on a pre-hunt scouting trip. Nosed over and prop strike, but not full turtle. Hit the help button but had no way to explain that all they needed was a mechanic and prop flown in to ferry the aircraft out for follow-on maintenance. So their full emergency plan got activated.

Excessive for the situation? Not in my opinion. The situation could have been worse and if it had the proper notification was made! If he'd been able to send a specific message out a lot of excess spinning up could have been avoided though.

They do make a spot you can pair to your smart phone to send specific messages if you need to. They're more expensive and I think the service is too but my buddies' situation makes me feel like it
might be worth it. I'm actually going to get one of those and a solar charger one of these days for just in case.

This is the very reason why I carry a Sat phone as well. I don't fly without it. Not to mention, were I fly you generally don't have a signal for a smart phone or at the time you need it, dumb phone. Sat phone always works.
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