Backcountry Pilot

[dirtstrip offline]

I do not use a written check list but I know many who do. I say the first of it out loud so my passengers know its time to shut up and quit asking first grade questions. Example: Mixture. Master. Mags. Fuel. Flaps 'n Trim. Prime it up, Clear the prop. Start it up. Check the gauges then.... on to the next step. This style works because I fly the same plane every time. No electric fuel pumps, landing gear, or constant speed prop.. yet. I adapt it as needed. What you got guys? Should we have the Gregmeister writes us some catchy tune to help us thru? Heads up is what I learned myself but not necessarily what instructors taught. They started by handing me a checklist maybe because I started at point zero and they assumed I was in a different plane than I was used to, which I was. Never had one ever say, "Memorize this order before next lesson. Get it in your head, the day the engine quits you don't want to be looking for checklists, reading with your head down." But that would have been a good thing although not comforting to hear.

[mr scout offline]

This gadget stuff is getting painful. A good friend of mine is a contract safety pilot for several airlines. He said the Commander has more crap than the space shuttle. Funny thing though, when asked what my speed on short final is I have no idea. I really don't know to much inside stuff after checking that I am 85 knots on base. Here at home its the stuff outside the plane that will kill me.

The other day I went to one of those long city strips, must have been almost 4000 ft Wow I looked at everything. ASI, VSI, AOA, Read my LOA, found my POH, it said I should be at or above 75 knots on final. Gear Down, Gas, Props, Flaps, Don't touch mixture with power pulled back or you will flood out and kill engine, full rich if going around only after advancing throttle. Don't over-boost keep below 42 inches.
Clunk we arrived..........Damn all that stuff works after all, now where did that first turn out go.

[182 STOL driver offline]

Gump:
Your 110% right -most of the "new" PP(read automats) I wouldn't let them taxi my airplane to the wash rack much less fly . That's why they have flight schools with rental airplanes for there use. If you can't fly by sound and sight get out of the small airplane . I have a LRI and occasionally look to see how I'm doing but don't become fixated on the panel---- Get your head out of the cockpit ! I could use much more abusive language about "I just got my PP licensee " .I learned to fly from a crusty old crop duster who had to go on oxygen over 100' agl. Then I spent the next 30 years at 80'agl and 80 knots between PZ and LZ and rearm with some "hostile aircraft modification" thrown in for good measure. Been there done that.I think all those "trainers" should be painted High viability orange to warn of impeding danger. I too was there learning to fly ---near 50 years and 22,000+ hours ago.Keep the rubber side down.

[nmflyguy offline]

Great post, Gump! Ron Machado is one of the best GA writers because he's so gosh darn common-sensical.

Two and a half years ago, when I decided to get back into flying after a 32-year hiatus, as soon as I completed refresher training and passed a BFR in a Skyhawk XP, I wanted to get checked out in PA28s, because I intended to buy one. So I signed up for some type training in Warriors at the local flight school in Naples, FL. It was a factory for foreign airline pilots-in-training (mostly Europeans, plus others from assorted countries in the Middle East and Latin America). The instructors all wore airline-looking uniforms, complete with pressed white shirts with little navy blue and gold epaulets. It was the only game in town for PA28 training. I hated it.

The instructor I flew with (for the four or five hours it took to get checked out in the Warrior) had the personality of an angry jailer, and insisted on flying strictly by the numbers, checklists, and the book (such as it is for a fixed gear PA28) ... there was no joy in that cockpit, no sense of discovery or fun or learning what the bird could do ... and I felt like I learned next to nothing from the exercise.

If pilot factories like that are training many of our newest GA pilots, then it's no wonder the high drop out rate for student pilots, and the rafts of pilots flying the bomber pattern with "stabilized" final descents miles from the fence.

[tcj offline]

Dirt strip asked:

What you got guys? Should we have the Gregmeister writes us some catchy tune to help us thru? Heads up is what I learned myself but not necessarily what instructors taught. They started by handing me a checklist ...

After the second time I took off with my seat belt flapping out the door I made a take off check list and stuck it on the panel.

TAKEOFF CHECKLIST

Mixture set
Controls free and correct
Seatbelts
Altimiter set
Fuel on, Quantity OK
Mag check 3000 RPM
Max drop between sides 300
Cyl head temp min 200
Radio set
Flaps set
Check Traffic Pattern
Doors latched

[NineThreeKilo offline]

). The instructors all wore airline-looking uniforms, complete with pressed white shirts with little navy blue and gold epaulets. It was the only game in town for PA28 training. I hated it.

The instructor I flew with (for the four or five hours it took to get checked out in the Warrior) had the personality of an angry jailer, and insisted on flying strictly by the numbers, checklists, and the book (such as it is for a fixed gear PA28) ... there was no joy in that cockpit, no sense of discovery or fun or learning what the bird could do ... and I felt like I learned next to nothing from the exercise.

If pilot factories like that are training many of our newest GA pilots, then it's no wonder the high drop out rate for student pilots, and the rafts of pilots flying the bomber pattern with "stabilized" final descents miles from the fence.

This brings up a interesting point, what do you expect a instructor to look like?? I've been debating this as a CFI, many people off the street that want to get into aviation expect them to look like a professional (as aviation is a serious business) most people think of a professional pilot and think of the white shirt and bars. Now when you get a existing pilot they have a vomit reaction to a CFI with the above mentioned outfit. The best I could come up with is a pair of slacks and a polo shirt with the flight school logo or something.

Thoughts?

Also on the "by the book" there is a place for it and there is a place for feeling the plane, the pickle is knowing how to balance the two.

[58Skylane offline]

). The instructors all wore airline-looking uniforms, complete with pressed white shirts with little navy blue and gold epaulets. It was the only game in town for PA28 training. I hated it.

The instructor I flew with (for the four or five hours it took to get checked out in the Warrior) had the personality of an angry jailer, and insisted on flying strictly by the numbers, checklists, and the book (such as it is for a fixed gear PA28) ... there was no joy in that cockpit, no sense of discovery or fun or learning what the bird could do ... and I felt like I learned next to nothing from the exercise.

If pilot factories like that are training many of our newest GA pilots, then it's no wonder the high drop out rate for student pilots, and the rafts of pilots flying the bomber pattern with "stabilized" final descents miles from the fence.

This brings up a interesting point, what do you expect a instructor to look like?? I've been debating this as a CFI, many people off the street that want to get into aviation expect them to look like a professional (as aviation is a serious business) most people think of a professional pilot and think of the white shirt and bars. Now when you get a existing pilot they have a vomit reaction to a CFI with the above mentioned outfit. The best I could come up with is a pair of slacks and a polo shirt with the flight school logo or something.

Thoughts?

Also on the "by the book" there is a place for it and there is a place for feeling the plane, the pickle is knowing how to balance the two.

I kind of agree to a point. If it's a full on flight school like Embry Riddle, large FBO, or the like in a big city, I think it would be good for the CFI's to look very professional. But, in a small town or city, a polo shirt with the company logo would be a plus.

Bottom line for me though, I just want a really good instructor that I can get along with and learn well from. Don't really care what they look like, and what they wear. Just as long as they don't smell bad. I hate the ones with bad breath, too!!!

[akavidflyer offline]

I sure liked my initial flight instructor. The center of his ball cap was caved in from the head set and he had 15,000+ hrs of AK time. The carharts and flanel shirt proved he was ready for the worst in the event of an off airport emergency. A 10 minute flight here could mean a couple day hike out if one was not busted up in the crash. His stance was the "govmit says I gotta teach you XY and Z. I say bullshit on that and I will teach you what you need to know to stay alive up here" The first lesson of the day was stalls, then I got hammered and hammered on accelerated (moose hunter) stalls. Only after I was a master of flying it on the edge of a stall and hitting my own wake did we progress to anything else.

When I was doing my instrument ticket, the instructor was younger than me with less flight time, and I had to take him out and check him out in the PA-12 for off airport ops (beaches, gravel bars etc.). The slacks and polo (and matching wind breaker with the flight school name on the back) didnt do much to put me at ease. I loved my second BFR when the instructor commented that I had more flight time than him and that he would probly learn more from me on that flight than I would from him. That proved to be a true observation on his part. At least he was man enough to admit it

On the best speed thing.. I am like alot of the others here. I ahve no idea cause at that point its eyes out front and feel for the proper sink rate and sight picture in the window. Elevator controls the speed and power controls the sink rate. As long as the sight picture on the cowling is looking good and the target is not moving fore or aft things are just as they should be.

[mtv offline]

At one point in my career I flew surveys with a fellow who'd been a P-38 pilot in the ETO during WWII. He'd then flown P-61s near the end of the war. By the time I flew with him, he had a LOT of experience.

We were flying a census one day, and landed to fuel up at an airport in OR. While this was going on, he had an epiphany: "Shoot--this is the last month to get a Biennial Flight Review, and I haven't done it yet. (they WERE originally BIENNIAL flight reviews, and the rule was published and you had 2 years to comply with the requirement-just enough time for most of us to forget).

He marched in to the local FBO and asked if they had a flight instructor available for a flight review. Yep--that young fellow right there. A very young gent came over, shook hands with Ray and led us into the training room. After an hour and half of quizzing on FARs, flight planning, aircraft numbers, etc. the young CFI said let's go flying. He'd never flown a Cessna 206, and said so up front. Ray said "not to worry".

With me in the back seat, we flew the requisite hour plus, doing lots of maneuvering, stalls, slow flight, etc. I thought it was a pretty comprehensive demonstration of the skills of a master of his craft, and the young CFI said he thought so as well.

Back at the FBO, the CFI asked for Ray's logbook to endorse it. When he opened it, he got really quiet. He then began to apologize to Ray for having put him through all his paces, when obviously, with 20 some thousand hours logged, Ray was the REAL expert.

Ray stopped him in mid apology, and rather sternly admonished him to NEVER apologize for trying to improve someone's flying or knowledge. Ray then told him that he'd done a great job of reminding Ray of some skills he hadn't used recently, and that he thought the whole episode was a great experience.

I've never forgotten that flight review. We can ALL learn a few things. The pilot who goes into a flight review thinking he or she knows it all may get a surprise, but more likely they won't benefit much from the experience.

On the other hand ANY flight instructor who goes into a flight review believing that HE or SHE doesn't know enough to conduct a flight review with a pilot needs to go back to school.

I've taken a lot of flight reviews with a number of CFIs over the years. Like Ray, I've had a couple with relatively inexperienced CFIs, but every one of those has been professionally conducted, with good questions and a great attitude on both sides.

Just because you've done some flying doesn't mean there's nothing out there you can learn, folks.

My old friend and mentor Tom Wardleigh told me more than once "If you don't learn something every time you fly, you weren't paying attention". It's pretty easy to go into a flight with an instructor with an attitude, yet there's always something to learn there.

MTV

[mtv offline]

As to dress: Our flight instructors wear a uniform, with white shirt, tie and epaulets with a logo on the epaulets. In cold weather, we require that instructors and students alike wear appropriate warm clothing and boots.

I've seen a lot of flight training operations, and an appearance of professionalism is pretty important, in my opinion. Doesn't have to be a white shirt and tie/epaulets. Clean, neat and professional looking, that's all. I wear hip boots when instructing in seaplanes. My rule is if I HAVE to use them, the student doesn't pass the lesson. Professional appearance? In that context, yes, in my opinion.

Akavid:

"The carharts and flanel shirt proved he was ready for the worst in the event of an off airport emergency. A 10 minute flight here could mean a couple day hike out if one was not busted up in the crash."

Some bad news for you: While Carharts and flannel shirts MAY be very Alaskan, they are probably some of the WORST kinds of garments to be wearing in a survival situation in the wilds of Alaska. Why? Because they're all cotton, and cotton is a LOUSY insulator when wet. They're tough, though.

The guy wearing the WOOL shirt and pants is the one who's actually walked out of that bad spot.

MTV

[nmflyguy offline]

Guess I didn't make my point clear enough.

I didn't hate the epaulet-winged uniforms .. I hated the "pilot instruction is a factory assembly-line where everything's calibrated as if you're flying a 787 Dreamliner with 300 paying passengers, and not the PA-28 we happen to be sitting in" attitude of the instructor I was stuck with on the PA-28 checkout. The epaulet-wearing instructor was a harbinger of what was to come, which I hated.

I'll mention that when I did the prior training in a Skyhawk XP, to initially get refresher training and to pass a BFR after 32 years of not flying, the instructor I had (in Albuqerque) was a local University of New Mexico engineering student, working his way through school, and about 5 or 6 years younger than my youngest child. He was the best flight instructor I've ever had. He knew what he wanted me to re-learn, he was focused, and professional, yet he did not lose sight of the essential joy of flying. He made it both fun and useful. I suppose I could go on and on.

Uniforms don't make professionalism, in my humble opinion. Knowing your business - flight instruction - and doing it well without ever losing sight of what your student - your CUSTOMER, by the way - wants out of the experience, is much more professional than the tight-assed time-builder with the fancy epaulets on the shoulder who's just moving meat through his cockpit.

Just sayin'

[akavidflyer offline]

As to dress: Our flight instructors wear a uniform, with white shirt, tie and epaulets with a logo on the epaulets. In cold weather, we require that instructors and students alike wear appropriate warm clothing and boots.

I've seen a lot of flight training operations, and an appearance of professionalism is pretty important, in my opinion. Doesn't have to be a white shirt and tie/epaulets. Clean, neat and professional looking, that's all. I wear hip boots when instructing in seaplanes. My rule is if I HAVE to use them, the student doesn't pass the lesson. Professional appearance? In that context, yes, in my opinion.

Akavid:

"The carharts and flanel shirt proved he was ready for the worst in the event of an off airport emergency. A 10 minute flight here could mean a couple day hike out if one was not busted up in the crash."

Some bad news for you: While Carharts and flannel shirts MAY be very Alaskan, they are probably some of the WORST kinds of garments to be wearing in a survival situation in the wilds of Alaska. Why? Because they're all cotton, and cotton is a LOUSY insulator when wet. They're tough, though.
The guy wearing the WOOL shirt and pants is the one who's actually walked out of that bad spot.

MTV

OK so maybe I should expand on it.. It was summer time, not winter.
As a hardcore back counrty snowmachiner and flyer I know all about appropriate clothing. I just used the carharts as an exaple, I cant remember for certain what Pierce was wearing that day but it damn sure was not a full on flight school uniform and if I know him, it was carharts or greasy Levi's. The point being, he was a crusty old instructor not a still wet behind the ears lower 48 pavement pounder fresh out of the CFI factory...

[mtv offline]

Hell, I can introduce you to more than one crusty LOOKING flight instructor who doesn't know shit from shinola.

As the man from New Mexico just said, the clothes don't make the instructor, and that cuts both ways.

Professionalism, however, is important. A professional appearance doesn't have to be a tie and white shirt. And greasy jeans just tell me the guy doesn't know where the nearest laundromat is. And, if he can't take care of his person any better than that, what sort of condition is his airplane in?

I agree on the "airline style" training, and have worked to minimize some of that locally. It IS important to teach the airplane and the mission, and remember that MOST flight instructors are pretty new to the flying game, so standardization is essential.

the other hand, checklists are good memory joggers, no matter how complicated the airplane. In other words, checklists aren't just for Boeings.

That said, they also don't necessarily need to be twenty pages long, and there are checklists that MUST be memorized in my opinion. Like engine failure checks, for example.

Then, if you have time, take out the checklist and verify that you covered everything.

But, great instructors are where you find them.

MTV

[mtv offline]

Double post.

MTV

[UtahMaule offline]

At one point in my career I flew surveys with a fellow who'd been a P-38 pilot in the ETO during WWII. He'd then flown P-61s near the end of the war. By the time I flew with him, he had a LOT of experience.

We were flying a census one day, and landed to fuel up at an airport in OR. While this was going on, he had an epiphany: "Shoot--this is the last month to get a Biennial Flight Review, and I haven't done it yet. (they WERE originally BIENNIAL flight reviews, and the rule was published and you had 2 years to comply with the requirement-just enough time for most of us to forget).

He marched in to the local FBO and asked if they had a flight instructor available for a flight review. Yep--that young fellow right there. A very young gent came over, shook hands with Ray and led us into the training room. After an hour and half of quizzing on FARs, flight planning, aircraft numbers, etc. the young CFI said let's go flying. He'd never flown a Cessna 206, and said so up front. Ray said "not to worry".

With me in the back seat, we flew the requisite hour plus, doing lots of maneuvering, stalls, slow flight, etc. I thought it was a pretty comprehensive demonstration of the skills of a master of his craft, and the young CFI said he thought so as well.

Back at the FBO, the CFI asked for Ray's logbook to endorse it. When he opened it, he got really quiet. He then began to apologize to Ray for having put him through all his paces, when obviously, with 20 some thousand hours logged, Ray was the REAL expert.

Ray stopped him in mid apology, and rather sternly admonished him to NEVER apologize for trying to improve someone's flying or knowledge. Ray then told him that he'd done a great job of reminding Ray of some skills he hadn't used recently, and that he thought the whole episode was a great experience.

I've never forgotten that flight review. We can ALL learn a few things. The pilot who goes into a flight review thinking he or she knows it all may get a surprise, but more likely they won't benefit much from the experience.

On the other hand ANY flight instructor who goes into a flight review believing that HE or SHE doesn't know enough to conduct a flight review with a pilot needs to go back to school.

I've taken a lot of flight reviews with a number of CFIs over the years. Like Ray, I've had a couple with relatively inexperienced CFIs, but every one of those has been professionally conducted, with good questions and a great attitude on both sides.

Just because you've done some flying doesn't mean there's nothing out there you can learn, folks.

My old friend and mentor Tom Wardleigh told me more than once "If you don't learn something every time you fly, you weren't paying attention". It's pretty easy to go into a flight with an instructor with an attitude, yet there's always something to learn there.

MTV

This is a great story There are lessons to be learned from hearing these stories about great people like Ray.

It's too bad the forum "search" feature cannot seek out all the great little stories like this that are floating around in old threads......

[Littlecub offline]

'AOPA Pilot' magazine, June 2011, page 91.
"AOA for GA" article by Dave Hirschman.
It is a rather favorable article and gives the impression (to me) the FAA is becoming more favorable to their use in GA.

I don't know how to post it here-it came in the mail, but most of us that are interested can 'look it up'.......
Or if someone has a scanner and skills it could be posted with credits here......

I am NOT giving an opinion. I am referencing additional (current) information.
lc

[mtv offline]

'AOPA Pilot' magazine, June 2011, page 91.
"AOA for GA" article by Dave Hirschman.
It is a rather favorable article and gives the impression (to me) the FAA is becoming more favorable to their use in GA.

I don't know how to post it here-it came in the mail, but most of us that are interested can 'look it up'.......
Or if someone has a scanner and skills it could be posted with credits here......

I am NOT giving an opinion. I am referencing additional (current) information.
lc

Hirschman's article misses several salient points, which have been discussed here in past regards AOA in single engine airplanes. He's fallen into the same line as many regarding these devices. Notice he quotes a couple guys who have done "all sorts of extensive research on use of AOA in GA aircraft"......then he notes near the end of that dicsussion that all this testing was done in a KING AIR!!! Very representative of a light GA airplane. Secondly, he quoted one of the manufacturers of these things accurately by giving the quote that this manufacturer always presents as "evidence" that the FAA is "very supportive": According to him, the FAA is encouraging us to continue toward completion of an STC for these devices. And, that is no doubt true. In his sales pitch, this is because the FAA is SOOOO supportive of the concept of AOA indicators in light GA aircraft. In fact, I'd bet that it's because the FAA is sick and tired of people wanting field approvals on these things, and the agency knows full well that the devices won't pass muster as primary information.

You will note that Hirschman points out that there IS one certificated device out there. It costs less than $5000, according to the article. I'd bet that's $4999.99, plus installation costs.

MTV

[OregonMaule offline]

My 2 cents worth. Why would you ever fly with a CFI for BFR you didn't know. I know a hand full of CFI, some I would pay for their services and some not. I have been back into flying for 5 years and I know who to use. You guys who have been doing this for a much longer time should know many great CFIs.

On a side note, speaking about new CFIs and low hour pilots. I used to jump in any plane with any pilot, that is how bad I wanted to fly. Boy was that stupid! When I had 200 hours in the Maule, 310 total, some experienced pilots didn't want to fly with me to mountain strips. I know why now. I really think now who I fly with and where. I don't care how nice a plane a guy has. If he flies 20 hours a year or less I'll leave him to the CFIs.

I will cross the 1000 hour mark by August, the 5 year anniversary of getting my PPL. I should have 1000 hr in the Maule by Jan of 2012

Good day

[flightlogic offline]

Interesting footnote... to the "pilots butt" mentioned by MTV and maybe others. My instrument examiner ( mid 80's in age at the time) Sabatini Ludovici had a running argument with the Air Force. He maintained that pilots could not fly worth a damn without feeling in their butt. Air Force did not agree. He badgered them long enough that they agreed to a small study.
They took some "volunteers" in pilot training and subjected them to an epidural block. No feeling below the waist. Strapped in tight. Before you mention rudders.... they were feet on the floor jet jockeys. Anyway, according to my examiner, he turned out to be correct. Their ability to fly on instruments was very seriously degraded. I found that interesting.
Might have little to do with landing, sorry about the thread creep. Did fly a C421 with AOA for a few years. Never could seem to look at the indicator on final. Not sure what it ever said... Landings were just fine.

[Bonanza Man offline]

I have been provided with an Alpha Systems AOA that i will be installing in my Bonanza shortly.(Contrary to an above post the research was not all flown with a King Air, a lot was flown with the same model Bonanza I have. Not that it matters what type plane was used, the point is it works and the data is repeatable.) I have been conversing with the two gentlemen who spearheaded the research. They asked if I wanted one because I have been critical of the AOA's and I said yes but only if it was the mechanical gauge type, not the LED version. All I have to do is report my findings. The unit arrived today. I will have my mechanic install it next week. It is a minor mod so a logbook entry will suffice. I did not get the one with a heated pitot, no need for that. As to the article I let those two guys know that really wasn't an accomplishment that a Bonanza driver went from flying his circling approaches at 120 knots to 85 kts. 120 knots is just stupid fast, showing a lack of flying skill. 85 knots is still too fast. No AOA was required to get there. That was the crux of my criticism, that the vast majority of Bonanza pilots, among others, simply don't know how to fly their planes effectively. So by the end of the summer I'll have a pretty good idea how well it works.