Backcountry Pilot

[Redneck offline]

Probably several threads on this topic, just don't know how/where to find 'em. I'm interested in installing vg's on a Maule MXT7-180. Who has had experience with which brands? I've discovered the "Landshorter" vg's on the web, which appear to be used on experimental and kitbuilt a/c. Didn't see many testimonials from certificated owners. Maule's list of approved mod's doesn't include them. Any up-to-date advice? Or, point me toward the existing threads. Thanks, Roger.

[River rat offline]

micro aerodynamics seems to have the most for certified aircraft. Im no expert on maules but Im sure maule guy knowes exactly what workes best on them.

[Mauleguy offline]

I use the Micro VG's, They are certified and will work great for you.

[jomac offline]

my 182R has full horton stol with micro vg's, flies under power at a little less than 40...way worth the $...

[Zzz]

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=961

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=123

[rfinkle offline]

I put Micro VG's on my Cessna 205 and am very happy with the results. The ailerons, rudder and elevator felt so stiff on the 1st take off that i thought I had left a tool somewhere. But you don't use any tools during the installation. What I was experiencing was the increased airflow over the control surfaces.

I have flown this 205 for over 30 yrs and know it pretty well. Pre-VG's the stall horn would be howling at 70 mph indicated and I was out of elevator, rudder and ailerons.

Post VG's: The stall warning is still howling but I now have good elevator, rudder and aileron control at 61 mph indicated. In fact, I can slow fly under 60mph indicated with 40 degree flaps (20"mp 2200 rpm) and make a turn without stalling. I'm real happy with them.

[Dokmow offline]

I put them on my M5. Worth every penny. Just do it, you won't be sorry. Put on the elevator gap seals also, if you don't have them.

[hicountry offline]

My High Country Explorer, 7GCBC has Micro's installed at the factory as part of the HCE package. Seem to work very well.
HC

[Glidergeek offline]

On a C180 who has flown with either a Horton, Sportsman STOL and VG's and which do you think was the best bang for the buck?

[Phil1947 offline]

I installed the Micor Air VG's on my Maule MX7-180A several years ago. Improved slow flight handling, TO and landings .

[Splashpilot offline]

On a C180 who has flown with either a Horton, Sportsman STOL and VG's and which do you think was the best bang for the buck?

I have a Horton STOL on my 55 C180 and love it, but it was already installed when I bought it. It works really well. I have also flown 180's with the Sportsman and VG's, they all work well, as advertised. But the best "Bang for the buck" I think is the VG's. They are $1450 and install quick. You can have them painted and installed having spent less then $2000 total. They also make a big difference on the tail, both rudder and elevator responsiveness. Everyone swears one STOL kit is better than the other, but realistically it has more to do with the wing on the type of aircraft you are modifying. VG's are a pain to wash, they DO get knocked off with the fuel hose, wash brush, slit your wrists, a pain to cover, etc. regardless of what MicroAero says.

The Horton and Sportsman are inherently more expensive in parts and install labor, but the performance increase on an early C-180 is pretty big, I have found. Close to 10mph decrease in stall speed depending on weight. On the later 180/185 with the factory LE cuff the change is smaller. The biggest improvement of all the kits is the Wing X tip extensions. Naturally you are increasing the wing area so they work very well especially if you are on floats. But they are $$$$ and won't fit in most T-hangers.

Just my experience.

[gbflyer offline]

I'm often times in the minority, but I don't think VG's do much for the 180/185 wing that Glidergeek is asking about. Not sure about the other Cessna's or Maule. Cub wing, been my experience that they work as advertised. I've tried both brands of VG. I'm not a very good pilot, so I've tried to take advantage of any "improvements" I could afford. If I had it to do over again, I'd take the $2K for the VG's/installation and put it towards Horton or Sportsman, or some more gas.

Have done before and after on 3 C180's and a C185.

The first C180 was a '55 with virgin wing. Put on the Horton. Was a low time pilot at the time, but it did certainly seem much more stable at slow speed.

The second C180 was a '57 with Sportsman. Flew for 50 hours and put on the BLR VG kit. No big difference, but it was a really light, excellent performing airplane to start with.

The last C180 was a '53 and had Sportsman plus MicroAero VG's. Flew it for 100 hours without VG's, then put them on. Only difference myself or my dad could tell was it became slightly heavy in cruise flight on the left wing after the VG installation.

The C185 had the factory cuff first, then the BLR VG's. No big change. Then we put on the Horton. Made a different airplane out of it.

By far the STOL kit, which ever one you choose, makes the most difference. Just remember to slow it down and fly it like it has a STOL kit, and you'll love it. Fly it like it still has the virgin wing, and you might float right on by the end of the strip. It has also been my experience that there is a bit of a speed penalty with all of the airfoil modifications. But there again, any aircraft I have owned has been at least 10kts. slower than what everyone else has.

Never tried the Wing X, but most reports I have gotten are positive, with the exception of possibly losing just a bit of aileron authority. But that is all hearsay as I have not flown one.

gb

[steve offline]

I had the Micro VG's on the Super Cub and thought they worked great. Just put Micro VG's and Wing X extentions on the 185 last summer when we switched it over to floats. Still in the getting comfortable mode with the new setup and have not pushed any limits. It is hard to compare apples to apples, taking it from wheels to floats, but so far it seems to be a good fit.

[Splashpilot offline]

I agree with some of the assessments about the Skywagon VG performance changes. But here is where the difference lies. VG's work especially well at high angles of attack, and most 180 drivers don't fly their planes that slow to notice a difference. Particularly on floats I have NOT noticed a difference on 180 t-o performance with VG's because by the time you get the AOA high enough to work you are dragging the tails of the floats. Maybe a little better on Whiplines because they have a 10 degree afterbody angle allowing you to rotate more. But power and wing area are worth their weight in gold in this situation.

Same goes for a 180 with 600 tires and the other with Bushwheels. The gear geometry is such that in order for the VG's to start working well the AOA is pretty high. On landing if you REALLY slow it down you are going to hit tail first, then hard on the mains with 600's but almost perfect with BW's. Same for the AC Scout I used to own. This is what I noticed by really pushing the envelope. Cubs, totally different wing, you can't compare the results. The Piper Apache on floats I used teach in had VG's on the wing and all tail surfaces. HUGE difference! Totally different airplane after.

The Horton and Sportsman on Skywagons seem to temper those extremes and work well regardless. Again, it really depends upon the type of wing you are modifying. VG's on a cub wing, or a C-402, or a 180 are all going to have different results, but they all work. Its to what degree you have to decide. If I were to buy a STOL kit for a 180, I would put a Horton or Sportsman, and if I put it on floats,.... no question, buy the Wing X mod.

Buy the way, I have not noticed a cruise speed penalty with the Horton.

[gbflyer offline]

My experience, except for the 1st 180, has been at sea level working a loaded aircraft on and off of 400' - 1500' gravel bars depending on the area while riding high on either Gar Aero's or 29" Bushwheels. I agree that if you get real slow the tail will hit first. We try to avoid that. Hard on the tail wheel, stinger, and empennage. Not to say that you won't get away with it when done occasionally, but not a good practice on a continual basis, especially with 4 "average" sized, gear laden fishermen aboard. Plus the fact that when you have to abort the landing (which will happen) in some of these places, you are screwed if you get that slow, VG's, STOL or otherwise.

I'd say we've tested them fairly well on wheels, don't know a thing about floats other than they are expensive to insure. Of course, everyone has a flying story.

gb

[Portage Creek offline]

Boundary Layer Research on the AK cub, love them.

Micros on the FL cub, love them.

They are a bit different and the way I fly, I tend to like the micros better.

My A & I said he installed a set of micros on a cub and first put them on one wing and did some slow flight and stalls. The results were stunning. The no VG wing always broke and broke hard. Frankly on either cub you have to hold it hard into a stall to get more than a mush.

I consider Jerry Burr ( who got the STC work in on the micros) as the best authority. Perhaps Jerry can tell you about something other than a cub.

GR

[mr.helix offline]

I have Micros on my 160 hp Cub. My comfort zone at low speeds dropped about 3-4 mph with VG's; down in the mid 40's for maneuvering, touchdown speed in high 30's. Especially nice with skis at high angles of attack during takeoff. In fact they may have saved my bacon on a takeoff when we went over a 'thin spot' on ice.

The Cub won't stall now, it just mushes down. A great mod IMHO.

[WingsOverPalawan offline]

Question: Do VGs require a particular minimum distance apart from each other to be effective? Landshorter.com includes instructions that show a difference in spacing per the width of the wing...For example, for a 28' wing, the spacing would be 3" apart. But I've also seen other installations where they appear closer than 3". Does anyone have any experience with this?

[courierguy offline]

Micro's on my homebuilt. Silly I know but I like the way they LOOK better then the plastic ones.... Chuck is great to deal with also as are the ladies working for him, top notch.

I have to admit to being biased as when I first contacted him years ago and asked why the hell he didn't offer a vg kit for homebuilts (this was way before the other companies now selling them for experimentals) he responded by sending me a full setup for a Champ along with advice for determining best placement for my Rans S7-S FOR FREE! I followed up by selling several sets to other Rans pilots, so it was a good deal for him also I guess. Circling yesterday at 8700' at 35 ind. at 75' above the ridge top eyeballing a new landing area I take them for granted now, I love them!

[oldtech offline]

Our local A & P man is a big believer in vg's. usually uses the micro kits. On a pre' 69 Cessna 170-185 the sportsman kit is a big boost. If you want the best, you can do a sportsman kit and vg's (they are stc'd for the sportsman kit). Several 185's around here running that combination. As money is always a factor, Most value is the vg's, followed by the Sportsman kit- for old style wings. I don't think I would go to the expense on the newer style wing.