Backcountry Pilot

[BigNickMontana offline]

This discussion takes me back to one of the first lessons I had where my flight instructor had two of my friends hop in the back of the 172 we were flying on a cool September morning with high density altitude up at MT48, I gave it wood expecting it to barrel on down the runway and get airborne in no time like it would with just myself and my instructor, the extended ground roll and lethargic climb the Cessna wheezed out made me realize a very hard lesson early on.

Weight and density altitude can get you killed.

It was a big eye opener for me, and luckily I had a instructor sitting in the right seat with tens of thousands of hours, I think this is why he knew what lesson to teach that day and it is one that I have carried with me and I always error on the side of caution because of it.

There is nothing like that sinking feeling when the plane won't climb as fast as you need or want it to, and with that comes a hard lesson learned, because when we were up there we flew over next to the mountain range that has the tallest peak in the state, and he asked me if I felt like I could just up and fly over it in that airplane in those conditions.

It is amazing how that feeling of I'm 17, I'm a pilot I am invincible dissipated.

A few days later we did the same thing in the 182, same two friends on board and I learned how much I like having that extra horse power.

This is why when I buy my own airplane next year, the short list of modifications is going to be prioritized with a new engine with more power, probably a P-ponk, and the 3 blade. After watching AK Tahoe put his together with that combo, I think it is going to be a win all the way around, and eventually when I move up to a 206 on floats, I want to stuff the AeroMods TSIO-540 350HP on it for the same reason.

I think with plying the P^6 rule applies (Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance) people I think can get wrapped up in the allure of taking a trip in an airplane and they think like they are taking a private jet that can climb 1500 fpm so they load it down like the family suv with out paying a lot of mind to it. That overconfidence is a sure fire way to end up in trouble like we see in this case here.

[Cub271 offline]

Ignorant, inexperienced, uninformed, unaware--all are less accusatory words than "stupid" to describe a very new private pilot (Dec 2011) in an airplane he had owned for a year (Nov 2011). How many of us knew what we know today, after hundreds or thousands of hours, X advanced ratings and certificates, when we were mostly wet behind the ears as pilots? Many of us took chances in our early days of flying, when we didn't even know enough to know we were taking chances. We flew close to gross weight near the service ceiling of under powered airplanes in weather that was marginal, and we didn't know any better. We didn't know the effects of mountain waves, of moving weather fronts, or even of density altitude. Not because we hadn't heard about them, but because we hadn't been there and done that. When we're first flying, we can't begin to put together all of the information that we've had crammed into our heads, because it takes years and years to experience even a small part of it. All of us here have been fortunate to survive those learning experiences, so far.

We're all students, at one level or another. None of us is good enough to point fingers and call others names.

Cary

Best post of this thread.

[ShysDad offline]

There were a lot of different things that occurred in this particular crash. I have spoken with the lead investigator Tom Little of the NTSB and inexperience was a factor. I have more details if anyone wants to know about them. In an earlier post there was an email sent. If I knew where to find the email, I could confirm or deny what was posted in it. I am curious about the ELT beacon that was on the plane. I was told that it never went off at all, the NTSB could not say for certain if it was even on or not. Is the ELT something that has to be actually turned on or does it power up automatically when the plane is powered up or is it a separate pre-flight task to turn it on. For those that are curious, I am the father of the 9 year old and the ex-husband of Trista. Just trying to understand.

[PA12_Pilot offline]

First let me say that I am sorry for your loss. It's hard to think of anything worse than losing a child, particularly one so young. You definitely have my sympathies.

Before answering your question about ELTs let me share an NTSB experience. Several years ago I witnessed two planes collide in the traffic pattern. I was on the ground approximately a half mile from the planes, they were directly in front of me, and I had an unobstructed view. What the NTSB reported and concluded did not agree with what I witnessed. Remember, I saw the accident with my own two eyes but the NTSB did their report based on what they found at the site and on interviews of others in the area - that is, the NTSB did not witness the event. That experience taught me that there can be significant differences between what the NTSB reports and what really happened. I am not trying to cast aspersions on the NTSB, but I am saying that reasonable and dispassionate people can come to different conclusions about the same event. As you try to come to terms with your child's accident please keep in mind the fact that others could also come to different conclusions than the NTSB will.

Now to your question. ELTs are triggered by a G-switch. That is, when the ELT experiences a sufficiently large force it is designed to automatically start broadcasting on 121.5 or 406 or both, depending on the model. ELTs, like everything else, sometimes don't work for a variety of reasons: they can be damaged in the impact, the battery can be discharged, the antenna can be broken, the G-switch can malfunction, the impact forces can be too low to trigger, etc. Sometimes the ELT triggers, but the signal can't be sensed due to things like a broken antenna, orientation of the antenna (e.g., after the impact it could be aligned in a way that most of the signal energy is directed towards the ground rather than towards the sky), or geography.

I hope this addresses your questions, and, again, my sincerest condolences for your loss.

[ShysDad offline]

That does answer some questions, I had. I was told by the NTSB that the ELT never went off at all, that indicates a malfunction of some sort.

[PA12_Pilot offline]

That does answer some questions, I had. I was told by the NTSB that the ELT never went off at all, that indicates a malfunction of some sort.

Not necessarily a malfunction of the ELT per se. The G-forces that the ELT felt might not have been high enough to trigger the device. That can happen when the crumpling and deformation of the surrounding structure absorbs energy and reduces the transmission of forces felt by the ELT to a level below the trigger point. Or the ELT could have torn loose from its mount, and in so doing didn't experience sufficient force to trigger. I'm sure there are other crash mechanisms that could result in a fully functional ELT not triggering. Also, it's a piece of electronic equipment: who hasn't had an electronic device, whether avionics, home computer, automobile dashboard display, etc. or ELT that hasn't experienced a momentary glitch that didn't repeat itself?

[Stol offline]

There were a lot of different things that occurred in this particular crash. I have spoken with the lead investigator Tom Little of the NTSB and inexperience was a factor. I have more details if anyone wants to know about them. In an earlier post there was an email sent. If I knew where to find the email, I could confirm or deny what was posted in it. I am curious about the ELT beacon that was on the plane. I was told that it never went off at all, the NTSB could not say for certain if it was even on or not. Is the ELT something that has to be actually turned on or does it power up automatically when the plane is powered up or is it a separate pre-flight task to turn it on. For those that are curious, I am the father of the 9 year old and the ex-husband of Trista. Just trying to understand.

Once again.... I am very sorry for your loss........

I have left out the name of the person who sent me this.........

Since you are new here I will repost this. It was sent to me after two failed CAP searches. One included a 36 NM TFR to keep out all "other" searchers... I am sure there are decent CAP chapters but IMHO they all need to be treated as suspect until prover otherwise..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
Hi Ben!


I'm an old fogey who believes in lessons learned rather than blaming others. Please ask the other folks to keep this private for now. We don't need anyone stirring up these agencies right now or upsetting the family.


We LOVE the many dedicated folks who comprise SAR teams! But in the case of this crash, the system was horribly broken.


These are some of the things that apparently went wrong with the notifications & procedures. They are listed chronologically whenever possible. Note: The aircraft apparently crashed shortly after noon on Sunday, 11.2 miles East of the Fillmore Airport (FOM).


1) There was an unconfirmed report in Sevier County on Sunday of smoke on the ridge between Millard County and Sevier County. Because there was no report of an aircraft emergency, it is unknown what procedures were implemented.
2) Although the FAA reportedly issued an ALNOT Report at 1148, Monday -- lots of counties and agencies were NOT notified for several days.
3) Utah CAP (usually Chaplain Boyd) regularly briefed the extended family on the search area & number of planes assigned. At the time, we did not know that they kept refusing other SAR resources (Pilots For Christ - Wyoming and other volunteers). It is still unclear who they did & did not notify. It is still unclear if they truly had the authority for all command decisions and had the right to refuse competent SAR resources. There seems to be conflicting guidance on this and even the counties didn't seem to know who was in charge.
4) Tuesday evening, I was flabbergasted that the Millard County Sheriff's Office dispatcher told me that they were NOT aware of any missing plane even though they were located in Fillmore -- where the plane was last seen. Chaplain Boyd had briefed me that he was in touch with their acting Sheriff and he knew about it -- but the dispatcher claimed no knowledge of it and wasn't interested in the information.
5) In subsequent days, family & friends were contacting lots of county sheriff's offices to verify that they had been notified. We are still gathering times, dates, names, etc., but several counties including adjoining counties told us on Wednesday & even Thursday that they had received NO notifications on a missing plane in the area. Some counties said that they were quite upset because they had highly trained & equipped SAR resources that would gladly have begun searching days earlier.
6) Wednesday, we were assured that several counties including Millard (Fillmore) had lots of ground SAR teams searching the local area. We were contacted on the Facebook page "Prayers for Trista, Shy & Matt" by private folks in that area who had volunteered their services with horses, ATVs & sleds, etc., but they told us that they were told by the county that they were NOT needed because they already had LOTS of search teams. Later, we received unconfirmed reports that SAR teams were not really deployed in that area after all. We really don't know!
7) When family members were contacting the governors & senators of UT & WY requesting National Guard resources such as Black Hawks and ground search teams, they were repeatedly told that it was impractical because the search area was 2400 sq. miles. This was an invalid reason for rejecting those resources, because there was NO evidence that they ever got out of the valley from the Fillmore Airport. Shortly after takeoff, there was one single ping received near Mt. Pleasant -- with NO further contact. On Wednesday, a group of us including off duty pilots and an air traffic controller went over every scrap of evidence or absence there of. We went through EVERY conceivable scenario and our group agreed unanimously that there was NO evidence they ever got out of the valley area. On Wednesday night, I contacted CAP Chaplain Boyd and he verbally agreed with our findings. I insisted that because a severe winter storm was forecast, the governors & National Guard must be contacted immediately to mobilize all appropriate resources for Thursday morning. Black Hawk helicopters would be absolutely critical in searching the local ridges, canyons & ledges before they would be buried by snow! One Utah National Guard Black Hawk made one sortie late Thursday afternoon and reportedly were joined by 2 more on Friday. We are unaware of any National Guard ground search resources being deployed.
Because of our connections with the USAF, Wing Commanders or Command Posts at several bases in the region were contacted. Significant resources such as photo reconnaissance aircraft, rescue helicopters and even unmanned drones were reportedly available but had to be officially requested through channels. We had a friend who works with classified satellite imagery that said they could have helped, but we couldn't get anyone in authority to make the request. That imagery and/or unmanned drones could have focused around the Fillmore area, the mountains just north and east of there, and a few lakes in the area.
9) Idaho Search & Rescue was contacted by family members and they indicated they could provide technical expertise or deploy teams & equipment if officially requested through channels. That option was not chosen.


End Result: The missing plane was found by a Utah DPS helicopter at approx. 8:00 am, Sunday, Dec. 2nd, 2012 -- 11.2 miles east of the Fillmore, UT Airport. The pilot, 2 passengers and 2 dogs did not survive.


The Utah State Medical Examiner in SLC states that the pilot died almost immediately, but his 34 year old girlfriend probably lived 3-4 days. Both of her lower legs were broken, but she eventually died from exposure. He also stated that her 9 year old daughter probably lived for 4-5 days before lying down next to her mother and dying of exposure. Grrrrr! She was relatively uninjured and her tracks were all over the hillside apparently trying to get help. The NTSB Lead Investigator stated a cell phone was found showing that the young girl had been trying to send text messages to her Daddy for help. Grrrr!


I'm sure that there are plenty of officials that feel terrible about this tragedy. But I highly doubt that any one of them would have any idea how horribly the system failed us all in this case. Some of these counties spend a lot of time, effort, and money preparing for SAR missions. We cheapen their dedicated efforts if we don't find the resolve to overcome these critical problems. In honor of our young friends -- we MUST do better and save lives in the future!!!

[ShysDad offline]

I must say I am unsure who sent that email, but the information contained in it is accurate. Additionally I was informed that if I went in on foot to search the area and crossed into a search area that all assets would be pulled out of that area. There are so many more details that were not in that email and as of yet have not really been made public. I am frustrated by the process but I know that the SAR searchers involved were equally perplexed and heartbroken by the outcome. The whole thing did not make much sense to me.

[Stol offline]

I must say I am unsure who sent that email, but the information contained in it is accurate. Additionally I was informed that if I went in on foot to search the area and crossed into a search area that all assets would be pulled out of that area. There are so many more details that were not in that email and as of yet have not really been made public. I am frustrated by the process but I know that the SAR searchers involved were equally perplexed and heartbroken by the outcome. The whole thing did not make much sense to me.

This whole search and rescue fiasco run by guvmint officials smells of chaos.... I can see them withholding sensitive info in the beginning to be able to inform the next of kin. But to not let ALL the facts out within a short time frame stinks of a coverup to hide their ineffective and deadly BAD habits....

The TFR's are an absolute joke too, it's not like they are cleaning up a crash site of a stealth bomber that has national security issues... To pull assets because someone wants to do a ground search on their own is outright lunacy.... This country needs alot more transparency and alot less " my dick is bigger then yours" administration... IMHO.....

Flat out...... Those two girls did NOT have to die... Especially that way...


Sorry again for your loss...

[ShysDad offline]

Yes it is a troubling issue, especially since Shyann sustained only minor injuries. She had scrapes and bruises and a few minor burns on the back of her fingers other than that she was healthy, she ended up freezing to death. The irritating thing is that CAP had no idea where to look, at one point they even included the opinion of a psychic in their search plans. They told me on Tuesday (3 days after crash) that they thought they never made it past the canyons of Fillmore, yet did not concentrate the search there until Friday. So what is your opinion of the search efforts?

[akavidflyer offline]

Yes it is a troubling issue, especially since Shyann sustained only minor injuries. She had scrapes and bruises and a few minor burns on the back of her fingers other than that she was healthy, she ended up freezing to death. The irritating thing is that CAP had no idea where to look, at one point they even included the opinion of a psychic in their search plans. They told me on Tuesday (3 days after crash) that they thought they never made it past the canyons of Fillmore, yet did not concentrate the search there until Friday. So what is your opinion of the search efforts?

I have to hand it to you. If I were in your shoes, I would not be able to communicate as nicely as you have ( I would probably be in jail in a very short order if I found out my little girl departed this way). The sad part is that some of your questions may never be answered to the point that you can make any sense out of this tragedy. I was involved in the local CAP for a few years, but it became very apparent to me that it was not a true search and rescue squadron, but a good ole boy club that got to fly cool planes only when they wanted to and with who they wanted to (for training etc) It did not take me very long to decide that it was a waste of my time, and if any of my friends ever went down, I would conduct my own searches as I see fit having intimate knowledge of that person and the flying habits that they had.

[A1Skinner offline]

This thread gives me the chills. I am very sorry for your loss.
My question is, how is the CAP not criminally negligent? It seems that their actions largely make them responsible for the mother and daughters deaths.

[xcalibursword offline]

ShysDad
I am so sorry for your loss. I would not be able to handle this as nicely as you are. You are in my family's prayers.

[ShysDad offline]

I have to handle it this way, I have responsibilities to my two other kids. I gave Shy 100% of my love and support and she would be angry at me if I didn't do the same for Hunter and Rayne. My other two kids are the only thing holding me together, those two and the search for the truth. Those responsible for this nightmare will deal with me but not yet. Not until I can find the truth and get Shyann's and Trista's story out for the world to see, hopefully this disaster can help someone else's baby get home safely.

[Oliver offline]

@ShysDad:

This story makes me so sad and angry at the same time, I could just start to cry.
My condolences to you and your family. What a tragedy...

[dayooper offline]

I have to handle it this way, I have responsibilities to my two other kids. I gave Shy 100% of my love and support and she would be angry at me if I didn't do the same for Hunter and Rayne. My other two kids are the only thing holding me together, those two and the search for the truth. Those responsible for this nightmare will deal with me but not yet. Not until I can find the truth and get Shyann's and Trista's story out for the world to see, hopefully this disaster can help someone else's baby get home safely.

ShysDad: You've been on my mind all afternoon. I've got kids the same age whom I adore and cannot even conceive the pain you must be going through. I'm the absolute worst person to try and articulate words of comfort in tragedy, but know my heart goes out to you. Take peace in the fact that your daughter is in a wonderful place right now.

[Nosedragger offline]

Anything the government gets involved in is going to get fouled up, that's easy to understand. What's hard to understand is the arrogance that agency employees have that usually goes with people that have had a lot of success without humbling experiences yet. How can you be a schmuck, foul up everything you touch, and still have that air of superiority?

[norm offline]

ShysDad,

There are no words for the loss of your child. Losing a child is the ultimate tragedy in this life, nothing is worse. This is a wound that will gradually get better with time but a wound that will never heal.

My thoughts are with you.

Norm


The Loss Of A Child

The moment that I learned you had died,
My heart split in two,
One side filled with memories,
The other died with you.

I often lay awake at night,
When the world is fast asleep,
And take a walk down memory lane,
With tears upon my cheek.

Remembering you is easy,
I do it every day,
But missing you is a heartache,
That never goes away.

I hold you tightly within my heart,
And there you will remain,
Life goes on without you,
But it will never be the same.

For those who have their children,
Treat them with tender care,
You will never know the emptiness,
As when you turn and they’re not there.

Author Unknown

[Cary offline]

ShysDad, there are no words of comfort that make any sense at all. I am just so very sorry. No one, except those who have lost their children like you have, can possibly know the heartache you must have. Thank you for sharing your grief, and if it helps you in some way, please continue to do so.

It's very easy to want to blame someone or something for this awful tragedy. I urge you to not get into the "if only" mode, because it won't bring her back or make you more comfortable, no matter what. The very best thing you can do is to love your other kids as much as you can. Seek counseling, if that will help--it often does help. And know that others share your grief, in their own way. God bless you and your family.

Cary

[Blu offline]

I'm so very sorry for your loss.
I have a 9 year old as well and my heart just breaks for you.
I will keep you in my prayers.

I remember this thread coming out and wanting to go join the search, then deciding against it.

I can't speak for anyone else but I will be going out if its within my power the next time..