Backcountry Pilot

[winger offline]

The following has been copied from a Skywagon listserv. -Z
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The TSA and MTJ (Montrose, Colorado Airport) "

After completing a trip and bedding down the airplane, a local pilot CJ pilot friend exited the Love Field FBO where his plane is based to find two guys in dark uniforms but no apparent badges shining flashlights in the cars parked in the lot. His car was not being inspected, but was parked in the same row and he figured he was next, so he wondered what they were doing. He asked "can I help you" which triggered a sequence of events that led to his being cuffed and "detained" for several hours, then booked into the pokey for interfering with a Dallas police officer. I'm not sure that he handled the situation as well as he could have, but in any event it turned into a really bad night for him. The officer also reported him to Love Field security, the FAA and the TSA. The TSA has informed him that he will only receive a "warning" for the offense, but he's expecting to spend $5k on lawyer fees fighting the other stuff. The guy has no history of problems, although I think he thought he knew what his rights were when dealing with law enforcement personnel. Turns out he was wrong.

I think we may be seeing just the tip of the iceberg re. the new police state.

It seems " they " are at it again. We were told AOPA was quite unaware of this Special Directive

While I am not the MTJ rep, and do not know who is (maybe you could tell me) I attended, though I am the rep for Delta Blake field some 30 miles down the road, with some 60 plus others tonight, a meeting no one had even heard about until two days ago. And really only email amongst folks on the field and the EAA chapter caused anyone to be there. It was a full house, even though the address given was incorrect. I would guess the average age was 50 with a lot of former military and airline pilots in attendance, or folks having other long time security clearances professionally, and who were a bit amazed at all this. Nearly all pilots.

Four TSA reps were there from Grand Junction, we think that is where they were from: Rennie (sp?) Dunn, Chris Putnam, Dick Wiles and a Peter Cook. Two never said a word, Wiles offered two or three sentences, and Rennie carried the freight. They all left in the same US Govt black SUV. One was reputed to be a former special forces Lt Col in the mid east and therefore familiar with security concerns. Frankly, none were very impressive but on the other hand, they had been volunteered for a clearly thankless role.

The basic overall concept is another "Federal Unfunded Mandate" which several in the crowed noted, in this case known as a Security Directive affecting all individuals having access to commercial service airports to become effective April 30.

Anyone wishing access after that date must, on only four near term days, apply on a preliminary basis for security threat screening. Those dates are 2/25, 2/28, 3/4, and 3/7.

Anyone not able to be present on those four near term dates must pay a $50 fee to begin the screening process. Persons must bring approved identification from the approved list to be found at http://www.montroseairport.com

Reportedly the SD is fourteen pages, but no one except the TSA is allowed to know what the rules are, as we ALL understood it, until or unless you break one of the rules. Each of the four TSA people there acknowledged they had seen the document. A Catch 22 - Alice in Wonderland moment.

A question was raised, what redress or appeal process is available. The answer was surely it would be reasonably handled.

A local prominent attny who was a former prosecuting attny opined that not only is this all backwards, in his view it was simply unconstitutional.

It presently appears that anyone on the ramp without a TSA ID is subject to fines or convictions in unknown amounts and arrest or detainment by unknown persons as it seems not to be known how enforcement will be conducted, or by whom. The sole female TSA person, I could not fathom or match the persons to the names, quietly said, the one time she even dared look at the crowd, that patrolling would likely be random and infrequent. Or something very like that.

Of course the question was then raised, why bother. No answer.

It further appears that each airport will need to conduct is own application and fee process and then TSA will do the screening. It further appears that each of the 450 commercially served airports will have to issue its own security badges, raising a bit of an issue for those who are professional pilots, travel to more than one airport, or, put rather dramatically, stop for fuel at self service pumps. The self service fuel vendor from Grand Junction, Colo traveled down to this meeting and advised that at a similar meeting yesterday, the first time fee for a screening and badge there will be $175 per person. Montrose said their first badge will be free, and subsequent ones on expiry of the first will be an as yet unknown amount. I myself flew three states last weekend. The west is a bit larger than the area within the beltway.

One fellow asked why not have identical badges at all airports so folks know what to look for>

One on field commercial operator said it would be cost prohibitive for all employees who might escort someone to be screened and badged. And there are certainly are no excess personnel available for such duty. The airport manager then volunteered the same answer for his staff.

A couple of ag spray operators who necessarily fly into a variety of airports here, and are always on call from various counties, were a bit troubled by the multiple badge requirement, and since they often are called out to do SEAT wildland fire fighting as first responders, (until from what I can see the BLM can figure out what to do,) they felt that waiting for a badge to get fuel and slurry water might be just a bit of an issue. How are they to anticipate where to apply, in advance? No answer. Multiple pleas were made of one badge, nationally, and the response was that concept would be taken back for discussion.

A local Colorado Dept of Wildlife pilot felt it might be a bit of a burden to get credentials from all his typical airports, plus those for the areas served by the other three pilots when they are on vacation, or out of town, not to mention the economic costs, or the time to go and apply at different places, etc.

Several FBO employees or free lance mechanics, or the Western Skyways Engine shop to which has customers routinely coming in from Brazil, Mexico and other south and central American countries, were told, directly, they will need to staff and accompany anyone not credentialed who is on the field. All of course said this would break them financially, and the self fuel operators said they too could not staff a self fuel op 24 x 7.

It is clear the Montrose Airport Appreciation day, when several hundred people visit with old classic cars, motorcycles, balloon rides, flybys, the LIONS cooking hotdogs and burgers to raise funds, homebuilts on display, Civil Air Patrol handling off tarmac vehicle parking and on tarmac crowd control, Americana if you will, could be a bit of an issue and the TSA suggested local law enforcement could somehow staff the escort necessities on the field. How exactly do you escort a large milling crowd? As it happens, I am also the Young Eagles- Co-Coordinator for EAA chapter 1373. We typically have about 100 young Eagles we fly with a variety of pilots on those fall days, and as a general rule, with mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers; you could expect maybe 300 or more people in the course of a day, not to mention grand parents, media folk, etc as a part of that operation.

Montrose airport serves the ski crowd, and movie stars going to Telluride, when A.) the particular aircraft can not get into Telluride due to size or B.) Weather. And that field is to close shortly for extended runway re-work. The Montrose FBO asked how he was to possibly monitor 30 limousines simultaneously, not to mention accompanying or escorting anyone within the vehicles, apart from getting changing and independent drivers to apply for credentials. I have seen easily 30 limos there myself, this is not an exaggeration, may be an understatement.

Questions were raised about what is or are the levels of thresholds for pass/fail on a security clearance, no answer.

One asked the TSA folk to verify the fine was $10,000 a day. They could not verify anything they said. Might be less.

Questions were raised about whether a DUI or childhood infraction would be cause for a turndown, no answer.

A question was raised whether an existing fire arm permit would be adequate. (Presumably concealed but unclear.) No answer.

Questions were raised about whether if a person were to escort someone who had failed a clearance, but the escorter, not the escortee, did not know it, if that escorting person would be charged with a violation? (How were they to conduct their own clearances?) No answer.

Questions were raised about how many persons one with a security badge could escort. No answer. It is being looked at..

Questions were raised about on field ppties or buildings with ramp access and non-secure or public access, i.e. two doors on opposite sides of a building, were to be dealt with, and the answer was the doors must all be locked and monitored, or screened. The following question arose, what if a mechanic was in or under a plane servicing it, and someone undetected walked through, who was liable. The impression was the County might be liable.

An unfielded question was raised, what if locking doors is in violation of the national or local fire code that all doors must be unlocked during business hours.

Questions were raised about whether this was wheels or boots on the tarmac, and which would constitute a violation. NO answer.

Questions were raised why an existing Federal ID, was not adequate, say a pilots license, perhaps with a security clearance stamp on the corner. NO answer.

Questions were raised why not a national one time clearance for all airports, no answer.

Questions were raised about how it would be possible to get all this done by the deadline, no answer. There were ambivalent responses that this was only version F or G and that further "refinements" were likely.

Questions were raised about how this was all to be paid for; the answer was the County or City that owned the airport. The airport manager made it clear, especially in these economic times; they simply could not pay for this.

Questions were raised that since by far the largest part of the airfield is surrounded by old tired three strand barb wire fence, why require all the pilots and assorted folks to go through the clearance process, when anyone could simply walk onto the field. Answer County responsibility to build new fences. County has been trying to expand what is there, but there are of course multiple demands for funds.

No one thought to ask what would happen if the hundreds of dairy cattle immediately north of the field were to break down the fence and an unauthorized herdsman were to enter the field to keep cattle off the runway.

Questions were raised about any cost-benefit analysis. No answer.

Questions were raised about any risk-benefit analysis. No answer.

Questions were raised about the likely source (s) of risk. No answer.

Questions were raised about what good can any of this possibly do. No answer.

Questions were raised about how this Directive was promulgated, and by whom, no real answer except it was signed off on by the Bush TSA administrator.

Questions were raided about how to contact someone who knew at least some of the answers. No answer.

Questions were raised about how this clearance would rate as compared to the various ranges of FBI clearances, no answer.

Questions were raised about whether any of the four TSA folks had pilot licenses and current medicals, none were current or active.

It appeared these four were selected to stand in front of the pilot question firing squad, and they acted appropriately enthused.

One young lady said if as a part of her job she would have to get a clearance and badge, free at first, then renewing, she could not afford to work at her wage at the airport.

Several questions were raised about what event caused this directive to be promulgated; we were told they could not answer.

Questions were raised about what would happen if a transient pilot landed, needed unknown repairs, or fuel, walked about the ramp without clearance, trying to find a shop or mechanic, and each turned the pilot away and would not escort him to wherever, were they liable? No answer.

Questions were raised about what would happen if a pilot landed, say at night, at an unattended field except maybe the tower, if there even were one, and needed fuel, and were spotted by a local police or sheriff. What was either the pilot or sheriff to do? No answer.

The six county representative for the newly appointed Senator Michael Bennett was in attendance, made a few notes, and urged a group letter or email, not individual contacts, and assured the crowd the Senator would not see individual contacts but would be aware of a group letter from someone on his staff.

Virtually every commercial operator said the plan, to the extent it was disclosed, was either totally unworkable, or will bankrupt them. One self service fuel vender said it would immediately break them. Some noted this was not highly desirable for the vendor, the pilot, or the national financial recovery.

A comparison was made between this directive and early TFR's which had no areas defined, and were not published anywhere, until AOPA began publishing them, but pilots were advised they would be dealt with harshly if they violated those unpublished TFR's since release of the data was secret and a national security issue..

The TSA lead suggested pilots look at the World Aeronautical Guide to see what airports had commercial service before landing. Several pilots said what were they to do if weather, turbulence or lack of in in-flight Guide, or inability to read it and fly the plane simultaneously, and in-flight mechanical issues were to cause them to make a precautionary landing at an unplanned airport for which they had no badge.. No answers.

It was noted this concept was brought by the Dept of Homeland Security whose first head on national TV proposed everyone getting visqueen and duct tape to wrap their houses against chemical attacks, and the TSA who mandated a certain very ill considered pistol holster for Federal Flight Deck Officers, which most thoughtful and knowledgeable gun folk thought was sure to result in accidental discharge, and did, in an Airbus, by a captain who was nearly brought up on charges til covert circulation of an actual demonstration of how this gun would have inevitably been accidentally fired.

A wide variety of questions were posed as to whether the TSA or Department of Homeland Security had really thought all this through. No real answer.

I raised the question of if there are some 600,000 licensed pilots, and untold numbers of passengers, limo drivers and their passengers, mechanics, vendors, etc why not have the TSA and FAA do a mass clearance by pilots' licenses, rather than all these one off clearances nationwide, which would be far more efficient, with a high volume and low cost per pilot, paid for by the TSA, not the Counties, or pilots, and at least get those 600,000 clearances to people statistically unlikely to be a problem, then move on to all the other groups. NO answer, except it appeared the TSA said they had no funding. Actually, who does? What is the estimated cost? Aren't new proposals supposed to be accompanied by reasonably estimated cost?

There were a variety of questions and intramural mumbling about how effectiveness could be measured, whether a program this dumb could be continued, and whether the real goal, perhaps by the commercial carriers, was either to kill off general aviation, or at least get it totally off the 450 air carrier airports? No answer.

A question, by a recently former US Army helicopter pilot, how long would it take to get clearances, now, or subsequently, if an ID/clearance was needed for a new or differing airport, where access was needed? No answer?

A question was raised about whether local police, sheriffs, fire dept or their volunteers would need clearance to get on the field. The answer seemed to be, probably not.

It was clear the airport manager and county commissioner were trying to be gracious in view of a new surprise regulation, for which they too were not given any or many answers, but were supposed to somehow make work, and fund, when they are already unable to fix roads, bridges, human services etc. They made it abundantly clear, they did not see how they could fund or staff badging on an ongoing basis, much less the escort issue.

A former county commissioner who does a great deal of heavy and timely airfreight shipments, asked how that was to be done with a variety of vendors or delivery services coming to the field with differing drivers at all hours that needed access to load planes. No real answer on how he could continue to ship.

I could go on but I can not recall with any specificity all the issues raised, I might be able to identify and get you a contact for one person who worked feverishly to record it all on a laptop. The meeting, opened by one Montrose County Commissioner, was really rather civil, which that commissioner and the airport manager both charged the crowd to be. In view of the near total lack of answers, or real responsiveness, this was remarkable. It certainly did not inspire confidence in the TSA or Homeland Security folk.

This was not TSA's finest hour.

Hope this representative recollection helps. I am sure I overlooked some things, and could not hear others.

Scott Morse - Delta Blake( AJZ)
morse[o]kaycee.net

[winger offline]

I just sent some of the information to Gelaldo at Fox news - he is an old ACLU lawyer and a pilot I think. We should all start sending this to our local and national news organizations. It is both a local and national story. AOPA etc. are OK but politicians watch T.V.

Nigel
KCCR

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]

Subject: RE: [Skywagons] The TSA and MTJ (Montrose, Colorado Airport)
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 14:02:51 -0800


Here’s a rough list of the airports to be affected; they are in two groups. If the TSA pulls this off, it’s the end of Oshkosh, the end of Sun-N-Fun, the end of the Reno Air Races, and the list goes on! TSA won’t stop with this list; they would be delighted if we were all grounded permanently; it would make their lives much easier, and they couldn’t care less about us GA types. This is a huge and unprecedented denial of our civil liberties; we really should find an ACLU lawyer who is also a pilot to take this on!



Are your papers in order, Comrade?



Mike Hoke

[hicountry offline]

Winger and all: I just sent this off to my Congressman Adrain Smith:
After completing a trip and bedding down the airplane, a local pilot CJ
pilot friend exited the Love Field FBO where his plane is based to find two
guys in dark uniforms but no apparent badges shining flashlights in the cars
parked in the lot. His car was not being inspected, but was parked in the
same row and he figured he was next, so he wondered what they were doing.
He asked "can I help you" which triggered a sequence of events that led to
his being cuffed and "detained" for several hours, then booked into the
pokey for interfering with a Dallas police officer. I'm not sure that he
handled the situation as well as he could have, but in any event it turned
into a really bad night for him. The officer also reported him to Love
Field security, the FAA and the TSA. The TSA has informed him that he will
only receive a "warning" for the offense, but he's expecting to spend $5k on
lawyer fees fighting the other stuff. The guy has no history of problems,
although I think he thought he knew what his rights were when dealing with
law enforcement personnel. Turns out he was wrong.

I think we may be seeing just the tip of the iceberg re. the new police
state.



It seems " they " are at it again. We were told AOPA was quite unaware of
this Special Directive



While I am not the MTJ rep, and do not know who is (maybe you could tell me)
I attended, though I am the rep for Delta Blake field some 30 miles down
the road, with some 60 plus others tonight, a meeting no one had even heard
about until two days ago. And really only email amongst folks on the field
and the EAA chapter caused anyone to be there. It was a full house, even
though the address given was incorrect. I would guess the average age was
50 with a lot of former military and airline pilots in attendance, or folks
having other long time security clearances professionally, and who were a
bit amazed at all this. Nearly all pilots.



Four TSA reps were there from Grand Junction, we think that is where they
were from: Rennie (sp?) Dunn, Chris Putnam, Dick Wiles and a Peter Cook.
Two never said a word, Wiles offered two or three sentences, and Rennie
carried the freight. They all left in the same US Govt black SUV. One was
reputed to be a former special forces Lt Col in the mid east and therefore
familiar with security concerns. Frankly, none were very impressive but on
the other hand, they had been volunteered for a clearly thankless role.



The basic overall concept is another "Federal Unfunded Mandate" which
several in the crowed noted, in this case known as a Security Directive
affecting all individuals having access to commercial service airports to
become effective April 30.



Anyone wishing access after that date must, on only four near term days,
apply on a preliminary basis for security threat screening. Those dates
are 2/25/ 2/28 3/4 and 3/7.



Anyone not able to be present on those four near term dates must pay a $50
fee to begin the screening process. Persons must bring approved
identification from the approved list to be found at www.montroseairport.com
<http://www.montroseairport.com/>



Reportedly the SD is fourteen pages, but no one except the TSA is allowed to
know what the rules are, as we ALL understood it, until or unless you break
one of the rules. Each of the four TSA people there acknowledged they had
seen the document. A Catch 22 - Alice in Wonderland moment.



A question was raised, what redress or appeal process is available. The
answer was surely it would be reasonably handled.



A local prominent attny who was a former prosecuting attny opined that not
only is this all backwards, in his view it was simply unconstitutional.




It presently appears that anyone on the ramp without a TSA ID is subject to
fines or convictions in unknown amounts and arrest or detainment by unknown
persons as it seems not to be known how enforcement will be conducted, or by
whom. The sole female TSA person, I could not fathom or match the persons
to the names, quietly said, the one time she even dared look at the crowd,
that patrolling would likely be random and infrequent. Or something very
like that.



Of course the question was then raised, why bother. No answer.



It further appears that each airport will need to conduct is own application
and fee process and then TSA will do the screening. It further appears that
each of the 450 commercially served airports will have to issue its own
security badges, raising a bit of an issue for those who are professional
pilots, travel to more than one airport, or, put rather dramatically, stop
for fuel at self service pumps. The self service fuel vendor from Grand
Junction, Colo traveled down to this meeting and advised that at a similar
meeting yesterday, the first time fee for a screening and badge there will
be $175 per person. Montrose said their first badge will be free, and
subsequent ones on expiry of the first will be an as yet unknown amount. I
myself flew three states last weekend. The west is a bit larger than the
area within the beltway.



One fellow asked why not have identical badges at all airports so folks know
what to look for>



One on field commercial operator said it would be cost prohibitive for all
employees who might escort someone to be screened and badged. And there are
certainly are no excess personnel available for such duty. The airport
manager then volunteered the same answer for his staff.



A couple of ag spray operators who necessarily fly into a variety of
airports here, and are always on call from various counties, were a bit
troubled by the multiple badge requirement, and since they often are called
out to do SEAT wildland fire fighting as first responders, (until from what
I can see the BLM can figure out what to do,) they felt that waiting for a
badge to get fuel and slurry water might be just a bit of an issue. How are
they to anticipate where to apply, in advance? No answer. Multiple pleas
were made of one badge, nationally, and the response was that concept would
be taken back for discussion.



A local Colorado Dept of Wildlife pilot felt it might be a bit of a burden
to get credentials from all his typical airports, plus those for the areas
served by the other three pilots when they are on vacation, or out of town,
not to mention the economic costs, or the time to go and apply at different
places, etc.



Several FBO employees or free lance mechanics, or the Western Skyways Engine
shop to which has customers routinely coming in from Brazil, Mexico and
other south and central American countries, were told, directly, they will
need to staff and accompany anyone not credentialed who is on the field.
All of course said this would break them financially, and the self fuel
operators said they too could not staff a self fuel op 24 x 7.



It is clear the Montrose Airport Appreciation day, when several hundred
people visit with old classic cars, motorcycles, balloon rides, flybys, the
LIONS cooking hotdogs and burgers to raise funds, homebuilts on display,
Civil Air Patrol handling off tarmac vehicle parking and on tarmac crowd
control, Americana if you will, could be a bit of an issue and the TSA
suggested local law enforcement could somehow staff the escort necessities
on the field. How exactly do you escort a large milling crowd? As it
happens, I am also the Young Eagles- Co-Coordinator for EAA chapter 1373.
We typically have about 100 young Eagles we fly with a variety of pilots on
those fall days, and as a general rule, with mothers, fathers, sisters and
brothers; you could expect maybe 300 or more people in the course of a day,
not to mention grand parents, media folk, etc as a part of that operation.



Montrose airport serves the ski crowd, and movie stars going to Telluride,
when A.) the particular aircraft can not get into Telluride due to size or
B.) Weather. And that field is to close shortly for extended runway
re-work. The Montrose FBO asked how he was to possibly monitor 30
limousines simultaneously, not to mention accompanying or escorting anyone
within the vehicles, apart from getting changing and independent drivers to
apply for credentials. I have seen easily 30 limos there myself, this is not
an exaggeration, may be an understatement.



Questions were raised about what is or are the levels of thresholds for
pass/fail on a security clearance, no answer.



One asked the TSA folk to verify the fine was $10,000 a day. They could not
verify anything they said. Might be less.



Questions were raised about whether a DUI or childhood infraction would be
cause for a turndown, no answer.



A question was raised whether an existing fire arm permit would be adequate.
(Presumably concealed but unclear.) No answer.



Questions were raised about whether if a person were to escort someone who
had failed a clearance, but the escorter, not the escortee, did not know it,
if that escorting person would be charged with a violation? (How were they
to conduct their own clearances?) No answer.



Questions were raised about how many persons one with a security badge could
escort. No answer. It is being looked at..



Questions were raised about on field ppties or buildings with ramp access
and non-secure or public access, i.e. two doors on opposite sides of a
building, were to be dealt with, and the answer was the doors must all be
locked and monitored, or screened. The following question arose, what if a
mechanic was in or under a plane servicing it, and someone undetected walked
through, who was liable. The impression was the County might be liable.



An unfielded question was raised, what if locking doors is in violation of
the national or local fire code that all doors must be unlocked during
business hours.



Questions were raised about whether this was wheels or boots on the tarmac,
and which would constitute a violation. NO answer.



Questions were raised why an existing Federal ID, was not adequate, say a
pilots license, perhaps with a security clearance stamp on the corner. NO
answer.



Questions were raised why not a national one time clearance for all
airports, no answer.



Questions were raised about how it would be possible to get all this done by
the deadline, no answer. There were ambivalent responses that this was only
version F or G and that further "refinements" were likely.



Questions were raised about how this was all to be paid for; the answer was
the County or City that owned the airport. The airport manager made it
clear, especially in these economic times; they simply could not pay for
this.



Questions were raised that since by far the largest part of the airfield is
surrounded by old tired three strand barb wire fence, why require all the
pilots and assorted folks to go through the clearance process, when anyone
could simply walk onto the field. Answer County responsibility to build new
fences. County has been trying to expand what is there, but there are of
course multiple demands for funds.



No one thought to ask what would happen if the hundreds of dairy cattle
immediately north of the field were to break down the fence and an
unauthorized herdsman were to enter the field to keep cattle off the runway.



Questions were raised about any cost-benefit analysis. No answer.



Questions were raised about any risk-benefit analysis. No answer.



Questions were raised about the likely source (s) of risk. No answer.



Questions were raised about what good can any of this possibly do. No
answer.



Questions were raised about how this Directive was promulgated, and by whom,
no real answer except it was signed off on by the Bush TSA administrator.



Questions were raided about how to contact someone who knew at least some of
the answers. No answer.



Questions were raised about how this clearance would rate as compared to the
various ranges of FBI clearances, no answer.



Questions were raised about whether any of the four TSA folks had pilot
licenses and current medicals, none were current or active.



It appeared these four were selected to stand in front of the pilot question
firing squad, and they acted appropriately enthused.



One young lady said if as a part of her job she would have to get a
clearance and badge, free at first, then renewing, she could not afford to
work at her wage at the airport.



Several questions were raised about what event caused this directive to be
promulgated; we were told they could not answer.



Questions were raised about what would happen if a transient pilot landed,
needed unknown repairs, or fuel, walked about the ramp without clearance,
trying to find a shop or mechanic, and each turned the pilot away and would
not escort him to wherever, were they liable? No answer.



Questions were raised about what would happen if a pilot landed, say at
night, at an unattended field except maybe the tower, if there even were
one, and needed fuel, and were spotted by a local police or sheriff. What
was either the pilot or sheriff to do? No answer.



The six county representative for the newly appointed Senator Michael
Bennett was in attendance, made a few notes, and urged a group letter or
email, not individual contacts, and assured the crowd the Senator would not
see individual contacts but would be aware of a group letter from someone on
his staff.



Virtually every commercial operator said the plan, to the extent it was
disclosed, was either totally unworkable, or will bankrupt them. One self
service fuel vender said it would immediately break them. Some noted this
was not highly desirable for the vendor, the pilot, or the national
financial recovery.



A comparison was made between this directive and early TFR's which had no
areas defined, and were not published anywhere, until AOPA began publishing
them, but pilots were advised they would be dealt with harshly if they
violated those unpublished TFR's since release of the data was secret and a
national security issue..



The TSA lead suggested pilots look at the World Aeronautical Guide to see
what airports had commercial service before landing. Several pilots said
what were they to do if weather, turbulence or lack of in in-flight Guide,
or inability to read it and fly the plane simultaneously, and in-flight
mechanical issues were to cause them to make a precautionary landing at an
unplanned airport for which they had no badge.. No answers.



It was noted this concept was brought by the Dept of Homeland Security whose
first head on national TV proposed everyone getting visqueen and duct tape
to wrap their houses against chemical attacks, and the TSA who mandated a
certain very ill considered pistol holster for Federal Flight Deck Officers,
which most thoughtful and knowledgeable gun folk thought was sure to result
in accidental discharge, and did, in an Airbus, by a captain who was nearly
brought up on charges til covert circulation of an actual demonstration of
how this gun would have inevitably been accidentally fired.



A wide variety of questions were posed as to whether the TSA or Department
of Homeland Security had really thought all this through. No real answer.



I raised the question of if there are some 600,000 licensed pilots, and
untold numbers of passengers, limo drivers and their passengers, mechanics,
vendors, etc why not have the TSA and FAA do a mass clearance by pilots'
licenses, rather than all these one off clearances nationwide, which would
be far more efficient, with a high volume and low cost per pilot, paid for
by the TSA, not the Counties, or pilots, and at least get those 600,000
clearances to people statistically unlikely to be a problem, then move on to
all the other groups. NO answer, except it appeared the TSA said they had
no funding. Actually, who does?
What is the estimated cost? Aren't new proposals supposed to be accompanied
by reasonably estimated cost?



There were a variety of questions and intramural mumbling about how
effectiveness could be measured, whether a program this dumb could be
continued, and whether the real goal, perhaps by the commercial carriers,
was either to kill off general aviation, or at least get it totally off the
450 air carrier airports? No answer.



A question, by a recently former US Army helicopter pilot, how long would it
take to get clearances, now, or subsequently, if an ID/clearance was needed
for a new or differing airport, where access was needed? No answer?



A question was raised about whether local police, sheriffs, fire dept or
their volunteers would need clearance to get on the field. The answer
seemed to be, probably not.



It was clear the airport manager and county commissioner were trying to be
gracious in view of a new surprise regulation, for which they too were not
given any or many answers, but were supposed to somehow make work, and fund,
when they are already unable to fix roads, bridges, human services etc.
They made it abundantly clear, they did not see how they could fund or staff
badging on an ongoing basis, much less the escort issue.



A former county commissioner who does a great deal of heavy and timely
airfreight shipments, asked how that was to be done with a variety of
vendors or delivery services coming to the field with differing drivers at
all hours that needed access to load planes. No real answer on how he
could continue to ship.



I could go on but I can not recall with any specificity all the issues
raised, I might be able to identify and get you a contact for one person who
worked feverishly to record it all on a laptop. The meeting, opened by one
Montrose County Commissioner, was really rather civil, which that
commissioner and the airport manager both charged the crowd to be. In view
of the near total lack of answers, or real responsiveness, this was
remarkable. It certainly did not inspire confidence in the TSA or Homeland
Security folk.



This was not TSA's finest hour.


Congressman Smith: This is exactly what my concerns are about This "Security" atomasphere that smacks of "Gestapo" type activities is a direct threat to our freedoms and way of life. The harm and montary threat to law abiding citizens without due process of appeals is dictatorial in it's entirity. What's next...state border checkpoints, visa to go to the lake for a day, special work permits to travel to work each day, permission to go pick up a gallon milk from Safeway Store, months in advance special permits to fly or drive to see family members in other towns, states, or countries? Where does it all end? It seems we have no say as our freedoms disolve while government agencies mandate our way of life.

[patrol guy offline]

Say, how does one join the militia?

[OscarDeuce offline]

Say, how does one join the militia?

When you find out, sign me up, too.

[gbflyer offline]

Ladies and gentlemen, there are times in one's life when only a four letter word fits the bill. This is one of those times, my apologies in advance.

"Those people are f*&^ing idiots".

gb

[patrol guy offline]

If that above action has you starting to think, it might be time to read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross.

[Savannah-Tom offline]

When I was a little kid, back in the '50s, my Mom told me how screwed up the Soviet Union was; you needed papers to travel anywhere, the government was always spying on the citizens, and people were encouraged to turn in their neighbors if they though anything funny was going on.

Damn. We are already there and beyond. I can't even drive to the grocery story without three forms of government papers: drivers licsense, car insurance, and vehicle registration. Warrentless wiretaps are now being done. The signs at the airport tell me to inform on any strange behavior.

Seems to me that we are there and beyond.

tom

[jfalk offline]

I guess this will close down the great camping area at West Yellowstone, and perhaps others like it?

[wirsig offline]

It may be time to decide what your willing to fight for and how far your willing to take it.

[Littlecub offline]

Sounds like we need to raise an 'old farts A r m y' or 'old farts M i l i t i a'. (does that look like I'm paronoid about gmt srch engns? If you ain't paranoid, you ain't pay'n attention!) We could all go to D.C. for a HUGE peaceful protest. That and hugely obscene piles of money are the only thing they (DC) pay attention to! (and I don't think many of us have much money after the (orchestrated?) meltdown of our assets, so we better go for people numbers).
This is CRAZY!

[OregonMaule offline]

When I was a little kid, back in the '50s, my Mom told me how screwed up the Soviet Union was; you needed papers to travel anywhere, the government was always spying on the citizens, and people were encouraged to turn in their neighbors if they though anything funny was going on.

Damn. We are already there and beyond. I can't even drive to the grocery story without three forms of government papers: drivers licsense, car insurance, and vehicle registration. Warrentless wiretaps are now being done. The signs at the airport tell me to inform on any strange behavior.

Seems to me that we are there and beyond.

tom

Don't forget the license plate, department of environmental quality clean report.

Out of the blue two weeks ago I get a letter from DMV informing me they want proof of insurance on a motorcycle I have. The letter says if I don't respond my license will be suspended and I will have to file a SR-22.

So I call DMV and tell them it is down for repair and I canceled the insurance for that reason. I was told to write that on the papers they sent me and return the papers to the DMV.

RB

[denalipilot offline]

So I call DMV and tell them it is down for repair and I canceled the insurance for that reason. I was told to write that on the papers they sent me and return the papers to the DMV.

RB

Hey Rob- Count yourself lucky that you even got through to a real human being at the DMV

The radio is playing Neil Young tonight- "...they were poisoned by protection..."

-DP

[pif_sonic offline]

Don't forget the license plate, department of environmental quality clean report.

Out of the blue two weeks ago I get a letter from DMV informing me they want proof of insurance on a motorcycle I have. The letter says if I don't respond my license will be suspended and I will have to file a SR-22.

So I call DMV and tell them it is down for repair and I canceled the insurance for that reason. I was told to write that on the papers they sent me and return the papers to the DMV.

RB

Rob,

Be very careful about what you put on that Nazi letter from DMV. I personally know of two people who have had their DL suspended because of that letter from DMV. One never got the letter and the other mailed it back just like he was told to and still got suspended. I have also had to write a few citations to people because they were suspended and have never had a ticket. I informed them to plead not guilty and lets go to court. The judge was appalled. Make sure you check up on it until you know you have not been suspended and all is good.

I have a story about the Nazis at DMV. One of them filed a complaint to my department and I had to go through a 3 week IA. It was proven that the 'employee' of DMV lied, but guess what nothing happened. Then 8 months later when I am supposed to get the title for my pickup, they screw up again (I think on purpose because she was caught in the lie) and send the title back to the lien holder again, which is why all this crap started in the first place. So I am done dealing with the DMV here and try to call Salem. I get a very nice female on the line. She starts asking me questions and through the conversation she confirms my street address, well I use the PD as my street address and she asks me “Are you Law Enforcement” I say “Yes.” She says “I am in a prison and I can not help you because you are Law Enforcement.” She gives me another number directly to Salem. Can you believe that.

It turns out they can not find the additional $55 I paid for the title to be mailed to me and not to the lien holder, since the pickup had been paid off for two years. Luckily I had proof I paid the full $110. This is just another way of the government trying to run everything.

I agree with having to have a driver's license and having to license you vehicles. And I completely agree with having to have insurance. But to randomly send out letters to people “Just to check on insurance” is a little like “Can I see your papers?” Or “Guilty until proven innocent.”

[TrevDog offline]

Areo-News.net publised that email.

also APA did a had a great article about it too.

[gbflyer offline]

I just spoke with an aide to Alaska Sen. Mark Begich (D), and he is in receipt of this transcript from the Montrose meeting. We had a nice conversation. He indicated that TSA has been very, very difficult to deal with and agreed that they are out of control. He further indicated that they have no idea the real workings of rural Alaska, or general aviation in any rural area across the country for that matter. Sen. Begich, along with Sen. Murkowski and Rep. Young are all against the LASP program, and this further security directive seems to be "news" to them.

I urge all of you to contact your congressional representatives, especially the ones you didn't vote for.

gb

[Meat Servo offline]

http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/US_TSA_Se ... 0_Dec_2008

[TrevDog offline]

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12079380

[Zzz]

Does anyone else get the feeling that the 172 that was stolen from Thunder Bay and flown to Missouri was an inside job staged to make this TSA crap more palatable to the general population?

In the article, witnesses at his "destination" in Missouri described the pilot/thief as very calm, almost as if he was waiting for law enforcement to come pick him up. He was described as being a very well adjusted, friendly fellow around the flight school in Thunder Bay.

What gives?

[/tin foil hat]

[OscarDeuce offline]

Does anyone else get the feeling that the 172 that was stolen from Thunder Bay and flown to Missouri was an inside job staged to make this TSA crap more palatable to the general population?

In the article, witnesses at his "destination" in Missouri described the pilot/thief as very calm, almost as if he was waiting for law enforcement to come pick him up. He was described as being a very well adjusted, friendly fellow around the flight school in Thunder Bay.

What gives?

[/tin foil hat]

No tin foil hat required. The government pulls "psy-ops" stunts all the time in Iraq and Afghanistan and the like to make people think in a certain way. They have it down to a science. Do you really think they wouldn't do this at home, too. I'm not familiar with the incident you cite, but it's certainly a possibility.