Backcountry Pilot

[whee offline]

I've been doing some flying between Nampa and Idaho Falls recently and have to fly around Boise's class C airspace. I mentioned my route to a fellow pilot and they said to just stay under the floor out of the outer shelf and I'll be legal. During my last BFR I went over this and was shown where it said in the regs that I couldn't fly under class C but I can't find it now...anyone know where it is?

Also, on the sectional it says to contact Boise approach when within 20nm. Well, Nampa is like 13mn away so anytime i fly out of there I'm within that 20nm. I never talk to Boise approach but I listen to them when I am flying around their airspace. Should I be talking with them? What would I say..."hey I'm that annoying dot on your screen."

Sorry if this is a re-post from a while back...I vaguely remember something about it but couldn't find it when I looked.

[flynengr offline]

Whee:

I think your buddy is correct, although I have always flown Mode C equipped. The AIM states in Section 4-1-20, para f.2.c) that Mode C is required "Within and above Class C Airspace up to 10,000 MSL". In my mind that means the area under the shelf is fair game to tread sans Mode C. One caveat would be like Oakland Class C, where it lies entirely under the SFO Class B 30 nm ring.

With regard to contact within 20 NM, that is more to define the correct frequencies for the various approach control sectors. You are not required to contact them unless you intend to enter the Class C, and my hunch is the 20 NM is more of a suggestion so as to minimize potential delays entering and sequencing traffic into the Class C. B- Man can probably add more intelligent thought on this, as I believe his airspace is Class C.

Flynengr

[Bonanza Man offline]

The 20 mile call suggestion is boilerplate for most approach controls. Helps ATC sequence the aircraft efficiently. In your case your direct route goes pretty much right over the runways at BOI. Call them about 25 miles east and say....Boise approach Superpieceofcrap 123, 25 east, 8500, VFR to Nampa, negative transponder." If the transponder is an issue, and it shouldn't be, they'll let you know. The radar has the ability to track and tag up primary targets, so they've already been watching you anyways on your previous trips. They might request you to stay outside the class C but they can still give you service. If you choose to stay wide of the airport they can also still give you service.

[whee offline]

Thanks for the info flynengr and BM. I'm a little hesitant to ask BOI if I can transition their airspace...my "superpieceofcrap" only has a hand held radio, maybe that makes it a Megapieceofcrap I know they are watching me because they talk about me sometimes...I've talked back once when another plane was reported close to my position.

So I can fly under the outer shelf but I should be talking to approach...they might even let me transition their airspace.

[flynengr offline]

I found another note in the AIM you might be interested in, Note 5 of Section 3-2-4 c.3. states:

"Pilots approaching an airport with Class C service should be aware that if they descend below
the base altitude of the 5 to 10 mile shelf during an instrument or visual approach, they may
encounter nontransponder, VFR aircraft."

Sounds like that be you.

Flynengr

[tcraft offline]

used to fly my f-19 to boise with no transponder to pick up family on comercial flights they were cool with it i did call on phone before i flew was not a big deal

[Matt 7GCBC offline]

Clearly I don't have the law degree as I misread the regs. Previous post deleted to avoid confusion. Go ahead and fly below the shelf without a transponder, without worries - although from the job of the ATC in providing traffic separation it still makes no sense to me, go figure.
Will try to highlight the appropriate areas. Thanks to Flynengr for pointing me back to the books to look a bit more!

From the AIM:
f. Mode C Transponder Requirements
1. Specific details concerning requirements to carry and operate Mode C transponders, as well as exceptions and ATC authorized deviations from the requirements are found in 14 CFR Section 91.215 and 14 CFR Section 99.12.
2. In general, the CFRs require aircraft to be equipped with Mode C transponders when operating:
(a) At or above 10,000 feet MSL over the 48 contiguous states or the District of Columbia, excluding that airspace below 2,500 feet AGL;
(b) Within 30 miles of a Class B airspace primary airport, below 10,000 feet MSL. Balloons, gliders, and aircraft not equipped with an engine driven electrical system are excepted from the above requirements when operating below the floor of Class A airspace and/or; outside of a Class B airspace and below the ceiling of the Class B airspace (or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower);
(c) Within and above all Class C airspace, up to 10,000 feet MSL;
(d) Within 10 miles of certain designated airports, excluding that airspace which is both outside the Class D surface area and below 1,200 feet AGL. Balloons, gliders and aircraft not equipped with an engine driven electrical system are excepted from this requirement.
3. 14 CFR Section 99.12 requires all aircraft flying into, within, or across the contiguous U.S. ADIZ be equipped with a Mode C or Mode S transponder. Balloons, gliders and aircraft not equipped with an engine driven electrical system are excepted from this requirement.


From the FARs
91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.
(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;
(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and
(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and
(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider—
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.

Interestingly, this is all that is written in Appendix D, Section 2....
Section 2. Airports at which the requirements of §91.215(b)(5)(ii) apply. [Reserved]

[whee offline]

I would have called you Matt but I lost you number I didn't think of looking through my pm's to see if it was there till just now. I'll give you a call and we'll go burn some avgas. Thanks for posting the regs I was looking for.

[whynotfly offline]

A little more of the same. I live near a Class C and use them frequently. As stated you need to call them even if you are flying under the shelf if you have no Mode C. Otherwise they may not know if you are under or within it even though you know your under it. Further, they are usually very accomodating if they are not swamped with traffic and will take care of your needs even though no transponder. They'll just make sure you advise them on you altitude, route, changes, etc. My last IFR trip my Mode C was on the blink. They just told me to advise them on any altitude changes and that was that. The class C here is training controllers a lot and they welcome the "pieceofcrappers" like us that chime in for help. The worst that could happen is they'll simply say "pieceofcrap calling, remain clear of Charlie airspace."

[Terry offline]

Seems you have to be part lawyer to fully understand the FAR's... and a lawyer I'm not, but is this the answer to 91.215?

Section 1. Locations at which the requirements of §91.215(b)(2) apply.

The requirements of §91.215(b)(2) apply below 10,000 feet above the surface within a 30-nautical-mile radius of each location in the following list:

Atlanta, GA (The William B. Hartsfield Atlanta International Airport)

Baltimore, MD (Baltimore Washington International Airport)

Boston, MA (General Edward Lawrence Logan International Airport)

Chantilly, VA (Washington Dulles International Airport)

Charlotte, NC (Charlotte/Douglas International Airport)

Chicago, IL Chicago-O'Hare International Airport)

Cleveland, OH (Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport)

Covington, KY (Cincinnati Northern Kentucky International Airport)

Dallas, TX (Dallas/Fort Worth Regional Airport)

Denver, CO (Denver International Airport)

Detroit, MI (Metropolitan Wayne County Airport)

Honolulu, HI (Honolulu International Airport)

Houston, TX (George Bush Intercontinental Airport/Houston)

Kansas City, KS (Mid-Continent International Airport)

Las Vegas, NV (McCarran International Airport)

Los Angeles, CA (Los Angeles International Airport)

Memphis, TN (Memphis International Airport)

Miami, FL (Miami International Airport)

Minneapolis, MN (Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport)

Newark, NJ (Newark International Airport)

New Orleans, LA (New Orleans International Airport-Moisant Field)

New York, NY (John F. Kennedy International Airport)

New York, NY (LaGuardia Airport)

Orlando, FL (Orlando International Airport)

Philadelphia, PA (Philadelphia International Airport)

Phoenix, AZ (Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport)

Pittsburgh, PA (Greater Pittsburgh International Airport)

St. Louis, MO (Lambert-St. Louis International Airport)

Salt Lake City, UT (Salt Lake City International Airport)

San Diego, CA (San Diego International Airport)

San Francisco, CA (San Francisco International Airport)

Seattle, WA (Seattle-Tacoma International Airport)

Tampa, FL (Tampa International Airport)

Washington, DC (Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport and Andrews Air Force Base, MD)

[Matt 7GCBC offline]

Previous statement rescinded and hopefully a clarification posted above. Sorry dudes.

[whee offline]

flynengr must spend too much time reading federal code at his day job Thanks for setting things straight Matt.

[mtv offline]

Simplified version:

You are NOT required to have a transponder installed for flight UNDER a shelf of a Class C airspace. Happens every day, dozens of times a day at Anchorage, where a lot of planes launching out of Hood aren't Transponder equipped, but they go under the shelf of the Charlie airspace enroute out of there.

You ARE required to have a transponder to operate IN Class C airspace. There are exceptions, however, and as some have noted, this is at the discretion of the controllers. They can permit non transponder airplanes in and out of the Charlie airspace, traffic permitting.

You ARE required to have a mode C transponder within the mode C veil of a CLASS BRAVO airspace area, even though you do not actually enter the Class Bravo airspace. There is also an exception to this rule: If your airplane WAS NEVER equipped with an electrical system, you can operate inside the mode C veil, under the shelf of a Bravo airspace area.

ANY time you are operating in range of an approach/departure control facility, you MAY contact them for VFR flight following. Workload permitting, they will provide traffic advisories, etc. They are not required to do so, but in my experience, very few controllers will refuse VFR flight following unless they are REALLY busy with IFR traffic.

And, it is ALWAYS a good idea to get another pair of eyes working for you, when you are in the vicinity of a busy airspace, to help with traffic separation. Controllers can really help to keep you legal, and avoid other traffic.

MTV

[willyb offline]

We have lots of controlled airspace in the northeast.I always call the tower when operating close by.I find they are always happier to know your on the same page and participating.Makes it safer for all.Nice to have radar coverage for flocks of geese ahead of you too.

Bill

[Redbaron180 offline]

Regs can be very confusing, in my understanding MTV got it right, though many others seemed to be absolutly sure they had it right. I was ready to be educated but..... Here in the Islands we buz around around under C all the time without talking to Approch or squaking. We still have a bit of freedom..................

[hotrod180 offline]

Regs can be very confusing, in my understanding MTV got it right, though many others seemed to be absolutly sure they had it right. I was ready to be educated but..... Here in the Islands we buz around around under C all the time without talking to Approch or squaking. We still have a bit of freedom..................

I do the same thing under the same Class C. They're busy enough with traffic actually in their airspace-- military, part 91, & airline-- that fairly often you hear "aircraft calling whidbey, remain clear of the class charlie". I think generally speaking that they're happy NOT to hear from us when we transit the area under or above the class C, txp equipped or not-- esp when they're busy.
Whee, I don't know what model Luscombe you fly but the FAR about non-electric aircraft being exempt from txp requirements might apply.

Eric

[Zzz]

Here in the Islands we buz around around under C all the time without... squaking. We still have a bit of freedom..................

You mean you turn your transponder to OFF altogether? ON? Or ALT squawking 1200? It seems using mode C at all times make more sense for providing a secondary target, or for other planes who might have those PCAS units..

[mtv offline]

And, I would point out that IF you are in CONTROLLED airspace (ie: Class E,D,C,B,A) and you have a transponder installed with mode C, you are REQUIRED to turn on the transponder. Flying a transponder with a mode C transponder in Class E airspace, particularly in busy airspace, without the transponder turned to ALT would be not only illegal, but a bad idea.

MTV

[lowflyinG3 offline]

Wow, you guys can really confuse the sh%t out of an ag pilot. I'm quiverring from analysis paralysis.
Three of my airplanes don't even have transponders so that simplifies things a bit and on 80% of the flying I do with the other airplane no one can see me anyway so it's off.
I'll keep avaoiding civilization, the choices associated with it seem great.
Whatever happens with creating little dots (identified or not), keep the head on the swivel and be careful out there.

[hotrod180 offline]

.....You mean you turn your transponder to OFF altogether? ON? Or ALT squawking 1200? It seems using mode C at all times make more sense for providing a secondary target, or for other planes who might have those PCAS units..

We leave the transponder set on "alt" with a 1200 code, to squawk VFR with mode C altitude readout. Or I do anyway. Just don't call ATC unless actually entering the class c.

Eric