Backcountry Pilot

[Zzz]

In the news:

Over-weight scenarios notwithstanding...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20091129/ap_tr_ge/us_travel_brief_flying_on_empty

Basically what this article says is: Always fill up to avoid running out. Of course, even a full tank can run out, and a full tank in many aircraft can reduce takeoff performance. These sort of layperson articles annoy me, but I can see how the issue can appear as simple as this to an outsider who's just seen some dummy run out of fuel and crash.

[Oregon180 offline]

Actually, that article seems pretty well written and researched to me. Better than most aviation articles for sure. They do bring up the weight considerations, talk to the NTSB folks as well as AOPA, etc.

Of course the key isn't so much having full tanks as knowing exactly how much gas you have and need. If weight is a concern, I leave stuff and/or people on the ground, not fuel.

[mtv offline]

Running out of gas happens with some frequency. I've been close once, and that was enough.

That said, an engine failure for ANY reason does not necessarily imply a fatal accident. In fact, lots of people land airplanes safely after engine failures, some in pretty rugged terrain.

In other words, the subject of this story screwed the pooch in two ways: 1) He ran out of gas in flight (at low level, to boot) and 2) he didn't execute a safe landing after the engine failed.

I would feel pretty bad if I had an in-flight engine failure due to fuel exhaustion, but I've been pretty close. I am now officially paranoid about fuel.

But, if the engine quits for ANY reason, fly the airplane to a landing. If you can walk away, good. If the doors open, better, and if you can fly it the next day--perfect.

MTV

[Zzz]

Of course the key isn't so much having full tanks as knowing exactly how much gas you have and need. If weight is a concern, I leave stuff and/or people on the ground, not fuel.

That's where I have the issue. You either know exactly how much fuel you have, or you don't. For me, 20 gallons is no less safe than 37 gallons, as long as I'm keeping track. I also think that "filling up" often invites the mindset that fuel doesn't need to be managed as closely because the safety margin (in terms of available fuel) has been increased so much.

Perhaps it's just the title of the article that I have a problem with. How many crashes have been caused by full fuel tanks? (high density altitude takeoffs) Only a single sentence was devoted to explaining weight/performance concerns.

[hicountry offline]

Z.....I think I had a disussion with you about this very subject some time ago...weight vs. fuel. I read an FAA article some years back that blamed the biggest percentage of small aircraft accidents on fuel mismanagement..either fuel starvation, fuel contamination, or failure to switch to the proper tank. Some years ago a guy killed himself out here in western NE...had flown down to New Mexico and returned to NE...a lot of hours flying. They found him dead in the wreckage...one tank was empty, one tank was full. Figured he fell asleep, ran out of gas in one tank, and the plane just came down out in the sandhills..not that much damage to the aircraft.
To me gas in the tank is like altitude from the ground...one can never have toooooo much when it comes to getting somewhere when things don't go as planned.
HC

[N131CP offline]

If you take flying lightly then sooner or later it's going to bite you in the ass. That's both the worst thing and the best thing about flying...

[kevbert offline]

... You either know exactly how much fuel you have, or you don't. For me, 20 gallons is no less safe than 37 gallons, as long as I'm keeping track. ...

You are soooo wrong! Keeping track only works 99.99 percent of the time, and then there's the exception!

I always use a 1 hour reserve of fuel in the tanks as my personal standard. In spite of that, one day it ran dry when I should have had close to two hours of fuel remaining! I couldn't believe my luck , but I was in the pattern practicing spot landings when it happened, so it was a non-event. My math was perfect on the amount of fuel I had burned, the problem was that I didn't account for the fuel that leaked instead of getting burned. It turned out that the seal in the fuel selector valve had sprung a leak in flight, draining my tanks.

I then realized the benefit of those transparent tubes that are used for fuel gauges in a lot of experimentals. You can see the actual level of fuel in your tanks.

[qmdv offline]

but I can see how the issue can appear as simple as this to an outsider who's just seen some dummy run out of fuel and crash.

Who me?

I am now officially paranoid about fuel.
MTV

Your paranoid?

When I was flying with a colapsed fuel bladder in the 182B a year ago last summer and ran out I managed to put it down with no bending of metal. Had I been in the mountains or flying at night, when they found me and all the pieces they would have found no fuel and would probably not notice a missing snap at the bladder. I should have had 8 to 10 more gallons when all went quiet.

Where I parked the plane was about 2 miles from the airport. If I had not had a bit of a headwind I would have made it and I would have filled up and maybe not have noticed that part of the bladder was colapsed. How many out there with fuel bladders accually drain the tanks dry (on the ground) then fill them up to see how much you really have. I do. How many mechanics do this as part of the annual?

By the way, I am an expert now.

Tim

[Zzz]

Somehow i knew Tim would chime in with that story sooner or later.

It's true. Keeping track only gets you so far. The cap left dangling or the O-ring that's turned to dust will get you despite your best laid plans.

The one nice thing about crashing with empty tanks is the lack of post-crash fire (but oh crap-- there's the unusable!)

[Green Hornet offline]

Fuel management is a priority right beside Oil Pressure. My wake up call was not starvation but wieght / fuel management. It is very dangerous to land an airplane with one wing low on fuel and the other full . Fortunately for me I learned this while still a newbee and had enough power to get out of trouble! I scan instruments and when I look at fuel gauges it is not just how much? it is how long to destination minus what I have - 1 hour reserve ? and is the weight going to be balanced when I get there = ?

[Mongo offline]

When my gauges approach 1/4 tank, I land and fuel, usually leaving around 10 gallons.
That is as close as I want to ever get.

I was never use to flying with less than half tanks, because the rentals were always full when I got them.

[GumpAir offline]

It is very dangerous to land an airplane with one wing low on fuel and the other full

Since when???

Unless I see a placard or read a warning in the POH re: balanced fuel load, I'm gonna run fuel out of tanks as I see fit. And sometimes that may be running a tank dry so the mechanic can work on it later, and having the other full.

The caveat being this is for our "little" airplanes. Now go up in weight/complexity and then you do have a whole different level of fuel management and balance of fuel weight.

Gump

[lowflyinG3 offline]

I just wear my anti-gravity belt.

No gravity, noooo problem!

[Green Hornet offline]

It is very dangerous to land an airplane with one wing low on fuel and the other full

Since when???

Gump

Let me qualify that " It is very dangerous for me!" unfortunately for me they took away my gravity belt and cape

[GumpAir offline]

Basically what this article says is: Always fill up to avoid running out.

I have always been paranoid about fuel, mostly because of flying where the gas stations were very few and far between, very hard to find when the weather was bad, and the weather was ALWAYS bad. The airplanes I flew would do just fine at 500 pounds over gross, but not do so good at five ounces too light on the fuel needed to make the trip. As a rule I always flew fuel heavy and full.

Of course down here in the wilds of Nevada, in the O-300 powered beast I fly now, I spend my days during the summer months pouring out of five gallon cans figuring way, way closer on fuel needed vs weight I might actually be able to get off the ground. It sucks pond water, and I get the heebie jeebies big time feeding off the bottom of my tanks.

Gump

[shortfielder offline]

I have the JPI fuel monitor in my plane,and I always compare it to my gauges at 1/2 tanks. My gauges are pretty accurate there. If the gauges agree with the fuel flow, atleast no leaks to that point.

Once my fuel gets down below 1/4 tank, they are pretty useless. That was why I got the fuel monitor to begin with. Didn't like flying around "pretty sure" that I had gas, and the gauges reading empty. When the bounce was gone, I would get a real tight butt.

Gary

[M6RV6 offline]

I weigh more than my full tank of fuel in my RV6 so I always land with 1 tank empty?? It is just always on the left side.
Really thats like saying you have to have the trim always trimmed?
GT

[jomac offline]

nice to hear more of your wisdom, gump. the edm 700 in the 182 is amazingly accurate, and i always back it up by dipping the tanks. i like 40 gal max in the frank, as it seems i've always got more stuff on board than i should have. knowing how much to get to another location is vital...allowing for weird events is also vital...spent the better part of a couple days on lower loon in the rain, while trying diff. routes to mccall...burned up a lot of fuel taking a peek thru the weather. last departure which worked, landed mccall with 9 in ea tank. edm was within 1 tenth...dip was right on...oh well, passing floaters kept us in great food and drink, one of the better trips...!

[Glidergeek offline]

I've run out of oil 1 more time than I've run out of gas The only time when you've got too much gas is when you're on fire

[58Skylane offline]

I've run out of oil 1 more time than I've run out of gas The only time when you've got too much gas is when you're on fire

I think I'd rather run out of gas than be on fire!!