New Builder

[Winchester 73]

Hello folks a little background I got my private license a long time ago and have let it expire. I am going to build a kit this year and have it narrowed down to the Carbon Cub ,the Mackey SQ2 and the Aircam. Am I right in thinking I will never be able to use any of the aircraft in a commercial application such as banner towing or back country for hire? Will this build just be for pleasure? It doesn't make a difference, I'm just curious. Although if one of these planes were able to be worked that would make a difference. If in the future I know the plane will be for pleasure only I am kind of leaning towards the Aircam. Sorry guys one more dumb question. If I were to move abroad to say S.America or Africa could any of these kits work for money on the side. Thanks guys. If anyone knows of kits with similar performance as these craft I sure would like to know about them.

[WWhunter]

Win73,
Best bet would be to contact the EAA and pose your questions. Actually if you are going to build an aircraft I recommend joining the organization anyways as they are the "go-to" place for any questions you may have. As I nderstand it, AB (Amature Built ie. homebuilts) can NOT be used for any type of commercial hire.
All the planes you are thinking of building will cost $75K-100K to build. The Carbon Cub would be hard pressed to build for 75 though as the kit itself is around $65,000, without FWF.
The Air Cam uses two Rotax 912 enginges and at close to $25,000 per engine/prop (new FWF) you're at $50,000 and haven't even started the airframe. Sure is a nice plane though but I doubt I would want an open cockpit plane where I live most of the time, but it would be a blast in the summer!
If you can find a Dec. or Jan. issue of Kitplanes magazine they usually have a complete list of everything available out there with the factory listed performance specs.
Good Luck!
WW

[WingsOverPalawan]

I would go for the CarbonCub, but that's just my own personal preference. They are such a classy, well finished, capable planes.

On the other, you may want to check online, contact a flying club or local private aircraft association in that country and start inquiring about the local civil air regulations first, before buying an expensive bird, paying to ship it to wherever your intended location is.

In the Philippines where my plane is, home built aircraft can be flown by non licensed individuals, no matter what the hp or weight. But it cannot be flown for monetary gain. No paying joyrides.

[mtv]

Your assumption is accurate. With VERY few exceptions, Experimental/Amateur Built aircraft cannot be used for hire or other commercial purposes.

However, for example, if you sell photos that happen to have been taken from your airplane....that's not flying for hire. If someone were to ask you to fly over their house and take pictures of it, that's getting into gray areas, but.....

Generally, though, no operations for hire.

MTV

[OregonMaule]

Welcome Win73. Carbon Cub is what I would build for a 2 place.

Cheers...Rob

[tcj]

Winchester 73 asked:

Am I right in thinking I will never be able to use any of the aircraft in a commercial application such as banner towing or back country for hire? Will this build just be for pleasure?

The selling of photos seems to be generally accepted as legal as well as using the plane for personal travel related to your business or employment.

Here's a couple lines direct from my Experimental Amateur built kitfox operating limitations.

"1. No person may operate this aircraft for other than the purpose of meeting the requirements of 14 CFR & 91.319(b) during phase one flight testing and for recreation and education after meeting these requirements ..."

"11. No person may operate this aircraft for carrying persons or property for compensation or hire."

"20. This aircraft must not be used for glider towing, banner towing, or intentional parachute jumping."

[WingsOverPalawan]

This may fall under a "gray area", but couldn't somebody start a light-sport flying club that has paying membership, but includes an optional, "free" 1 hour flight?

[dirtstrip]

Majority portion (over 50%) must be constructed for purposes of recreation or education of the builder. That is what defines the amateur built category. Commerical use (for hire) is prohibited, I think its a $10,000 fine. I can use it for my own business use such as checking fence, pasture, infrared crop stress photography, parts runs and such that are not done for hire. I do know that these rules can be different for other countries as Ridge Runner stated. Homebuilt/Experimentals have been used for crop dusting in some South American countries.

http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-photo7.htm and lately the GT 500

The US exception to commercial use is the experimental spaceship market, but a little outside the reach of those whose name doesn't begin with Sir Richard.

[Winchester 73]

I am hoping to get my build done for around 90k with a rebuilt engine. The one thing that worries me about the twin Aircam is fuel consumption. By my calculations I'll be looking at about 14 gallons per hour.

[svanarts]

If you fit your AirCam with two Rotax 912S motors you'd be looking at slightly less than 10 gph fuel consumption.

[Winchester 73]

I can't thank you guys enough for suffering my questions. Some of which might sound dumb to you seasoned veterans. Anyway I know that the FAA considers 51% a home built. Is there any regulation prohibiting me hiring help? My brother in-law is a 28 year old laid off mechanical engineer. He's a good kid. I know I could have him come stay with me and my wife for a few months and not say anything but I want to know if it's against the rules. The only way I could make him work steady is by paying him and he would be working on the plane alone most of the time. I figure at 40 hours a week I could keep him off unemployment while his resumes are marinating and I could have my plane built and make my wife love me more He's a good kid. Doesn't drink or smoke and he's a damn good operator in a machine shop. My worry is my lack of sleep. I simply can't bend a rule without going mad. It's an affliction. So my question is am I allowed to hire help to build the plane or must it be done alone or father and son style? Thanks folks

[svanarts]

You can hire help, heck, he can build the whole thing if that's what you want. It won't affect how it is certificated. It will still be an Amateur Built Experimental. However, what it does affect is who get's the repairman certificate. Whoever can show they did the bulk of the work, and files the paperwork for the repairman certificate, gets the RC. And that guy can basically be the A&P, I&A on that specific airplane. Or a REAL A&P I&A can do it.

Clear as mud?

[Stol]

First off I commend you on the idea of keeping someone off the unemployment roles....
Scott is right on with his comments. Hiring him to help is a great idea, if it turns out he puts in more hours on the plane then you do then he qualifies for the repairmans certificate. Thats not a deal breaker as you will still be the registered owner. As long as you stay married to his sister you are good to go... The best possible outcome is your brother in law will fall in love with building your plane, get the fever of aviation and start his own "builder assist" business and live the Americam dream of being a sucessful business and work for himself...... I say..... GO FOR IT ..
Ps. if he is good around the machine shop, that should help as most machinists I know love a good challange. Don't ask how I know..

Ben
www.haaspowerair.com

[tcj]

The FAA definition of amateur is one who does not get paid to build the plane. Amateur(s) must build 51% to register Experimental amateur built. Paid builders...which incliudes the Kit manufacture...can build a total of only 49%.

Now, determining what constitutes 51% will make you go crazy if you try to deteremine it using the FAA's chart.

Best not mention hireing someone to build an experimental in public.

[Rooster Cogburn]

The FAA definition of amateur is one who does not get paid to build the plane. Amateur(s) must build 51% to register Experimental amateur built. Paid builders...which incliudes the Kit manufacture...can build a total of only 49%.

Now, determining what constitutes 51% will make you go crazy if you try to deteremine it using the FAA's chart.

Best not mention hireing someone to build an experimental in public.

There is also a builders log to keep

[dirtstrip]

I can't thank you guys enough for suffering my questions. Some of which might sound dumb to you seasoned veterans. Anyway I know that the FAA considers 51% a home built. Is there any regulation prohibiting me hiring help? My brother in-law is a 28 year old laid off mechanical engineer. He's a good kid. I know I could have him come stay with me and my wife for a few months and not say anything but I want to know if it's against the rules. The only way I could make him work steady is by paying him and he would be working on the plane alone most of the time. I figure at 40 hours a week I could keep him off unemployment while his resumes are marinating and I could have my plane built and make my wife love me more He's a good kid. Doesn't drink or smoke and he's a damn good operator in a machine shop. My worry is my lack of sleep. I simply can't bend a rule without going mad. It's an affliction. So my question is am I allowed to hire help to build the plane or must it be done alone or father and son style? Thanks folks

One choice is to buy a plane completed. That is the ultimate paid commercial help. You can do that but you cannot then be the builder.

The following assumes you want to be listed as the builder and then you can get the repairman certificate.
The required builders log is not necessarily comprised of hours but a documentation of tasks you completed and when. Meeting the major portion rule (over 50%) is measured against a breakdown of each of those tasks. Percentages are assigned by the FAA to each component's required task of construction such as in the wing or fuselage. Your participation is required in completing each task listed, but does not necessarily correlate to the majority of the total hours of the build time on the entire plane... and your build partner might be there as much as you but only one of you can be listed as the builder.

Example: The majority of the total hours on many amateur built planes is spent in construction and assembly of the wings. Yet many kits that are FAA approved will have all the ribs pre constructed and wing assembly is all that is left. In the fast build kits (kits considered about 40% completed when received) all that may be required of the builder to complete each wing is to install control cables, lines, tanks, necessary wiring and install and close the remaining wing skins. The ribs, spars and strut attach points are already in place and riveted. And it is ok to have help. No one is expected to be able to run a rivet gun by themselves on the inside of a wing skin and hold the bucking bar at the same time on the other side of the wing. Most times it is not even possible.

Take a look at a fast build Tundra kit and you will see a typical 40% completed FAA approved kit. 40% of the total hours it takes to build the plane from scratch can easily take more time than completing the 40% of the TASKS involved to build the kit to that same point and the hours will vary with the experience and speed of each builder. So, the tasks involved refer to the process of the build not the time spent doing it.

40% Fast build kit Tundra. Click photo to enlarge. http://www.dreamaircraft.com/dreamaircr ... at=0&pos=0

That 40% fast build kit has been 100% assembled by paid factory help and you are allowed to come to the factory and pay them to assist you in completing the major portion of the tasks involved. I had a paid partner instructing me through out my factory build. Our hours may actually be equal on the remaining 60% as he was there throughout. Supervision saved me a lot of do overs and organized the work ahead of me saving me gopher time for materials and tools. This cut the hours involved on the whole project. My required contribution is in the actual build time only. Not in setting up work space, gathering parts or duplication of hours because of mistakes, these are not required tasks but eat up a lot of hours in any build.
A paid partner is just as acceptable as having a paid A/P oversee your own work on many jobs performed on your certified plane.


Sign that dude up to help on your plane, pay him, but remember only one of you can be listed as builder. That should be you. Make sure you are involved in each TASK, not necessarily in each hour. Hope you sleep better now.

Here is a Q&A discussion on the subject from EAA. http://www.eaa.org/govt/ab_qa.asp

I spent more time this morning editing what I wrote last night than I did actually writing it. The hours involved were greater than the finished task suggest?