Doing the right thing

[mr scout]

I was at the gun shop yesterday and had a chance to try several new handguns to mount inside the plane.

The one I liked the best belonged to Wup

I guess I should have stopped after 200 rounds but It was just way cool.

Besides now you wont have to break it in Wup.

[Fisherman]

I was at the gun shop yesterday and had a chance to try several new handguns to mount inside the plane.

The one I liked the best belonged to Wup

I guess I should have stopped after 200 rounds but It was just way cool.

Besides now you wont have to break it in Wup.

Well, are you going to tell us what model it is? Inquiring minds you know!

[Hottshot]

Thanks! I hate to have to brake in a new gun.... Did you take any pictures???? How'd ya like the trigger worK ?

[Hottshot]

I was at the gun shop yesterday and had a chance to try several new handguns to mount inside the plane.

The one I liked the best belonged to Wup

I guess I should have stopped after 200 rounds but It was just way cool.

Besides now you wont have to break it in Wup.

Well, are you going to tell us what model it is? Inquiring minds you know!

Model: M&P
Caliber: 9mm
Capacity: 17+1 Rounds
Barrel Length: 4.25"
Front Sight: Steel Ramp Dovetail Mount - Tritium Sights Optional
Rear Sight: Steel Novak® Lo-Mount Carry - Tritium Sights Optional
Trigger Pull: 6.5 lbs.
Trigger Travel: Rest to Fire .300 in.
Trigger Reset: Approx. .140 in.
Frame: Large
Finish: Slide and Barrel Black Melonite®, 68HRc
Overall Length: 7.5"
Material: Zytel Polymer Frame, Stainless Steel Barrel/Slide and Structural Components
Weight Empty (No Mag): 24.00 oz.
Overall Height: 5.5"
Width: 1.2"
Sight Length: 6.4"

[Hottshot]

Most important he will be cool!

By the way how did Bruces Shot gun turn out? I need to save pennies for that one in the spring

[mr scout]

I think that trigger was more like 2.968 than 3

[Skylane]

Well you all know why a 9mm carries so many rounds in the mag? Because it has to.

The S.O. I used to work for had 9mms. When I started we used .357 wheel guns. Then they decided we should go to semi autos. 9mm Glock 17s. Nice gun, still have it with +2 mag extenders, after 20 years. However after a good guy-bad guy shoot, and the bad guy took 5 in the torso, they went to .40s. Shots were taken at about 10 feet. This happened after I left the department.

I know there has been some changes in ammo to help in the knock down. Me I still use 115 grain HPs.

See ya, Bub

[a64pilot]

I was at the gun shop yesterday and had a chance to try several new handguns to mount inside the plane.

What kind of sight are you going to use? Are you going to have interrupter gear so you can fire through the prop?

[RanchAero]

Hard mounts on the wings and gear, heads up display for sights.
Ya know....the usual.

[RanchAero]

whoops

[mr scout]

I think it will be a swivel mount on the green house to go with the hard mount 12 ga. on each wing.

At least till Wup starts to miss it.

[qmdv]

However after a good guy-bad guy shoot, and the bad guy took 5 in the torso, they went to .40s. Shots were taken at about 10 feet.

That is why the military went to the .45 about a century ago. They went to the 9mm cus MacNamarra said it would save a dime, to make NATO happy and to make it essayer for the women in the services.

My son in law was in the Army Rangers and his First Sargent boot ledged in his personal .45 when in Afganistan in 2002. Now Ryan is in SF and they are going back to the .45 or to be poltically correct, the 11.25mm.

This is your passion, what say you gun trader. There should definatly be a gun section in the forum.

Tim

[qmdv]

This sounds like a great conversation for a campfire!!!!

Could call gun trader. When is the next campfire, I am looking forward to those your lingwisi. Is that spelled right.

Tim

[Hammer]

However after a good guy-bad guy shoot, and the bad guy took 5 in the torso, they went to .40s. Shots were taken at about 10 feet.

This is not surprising, and has little if anything to do with the caliber of weapon. People want to believe that one caliber or bullet is inherently better at stopping a person than another, when in reality the differences are amazingly small. Pick the heaviest bullet weight in any given caliber and the differences between them are mostly personal preference.

Simply put, the only way to stop an aggressive act by a human is to disrupt the central nervous system. The only two ways to do that are to sever the spine or brain stem, or to deprive the CNS of oxygen by lowering blood pressure to the point it cannot replenish the O2. That takes time. A minimum of six seconds, actually.

Six seconds is the minimum amount of time a person can keep functioning in a meaningful (aggressive and harmful) way once their heart has stopped pumping. A fit person or a person on CNS stimulants can go a lot longer.

In other words, unless you manage to hit the upper spine or the brain stem, you can expect at least six seconds of active, coordinated hostility regardless of how many rounds you pump into a person. It doesn't matter if you're shooting 9mm or .45acp, the results will be the same. If too much TV and pulp articles in gun magazines has made this hard to believe, go shoot a 200 pound deer through the chest with a 30-06 and watch how far it runs. Now think about how much more powerful that 30-06 is than any of your pet handgun rounds, and what the result would be if instead of running, Mr. Deer pulled out a Glock 17 and started lighting you up.

The FBI went away from the 9mm because it lacked penetration they wanted...specifically one 9mm bullet fell approximately one inch short of penetrating a suspects heart during the famous Miami shootout. As it was one of the first rounds fired, the end result would have been a lot different if it had done a better job.

In shutting down an aggressive attacker, shot placement is by far the single most important factor. Penetration is the second, as the parts which need to be destroyed lie deep withing the body cavity and are well protected. This is why the Glazer Safety Slugs have proven to be completely and utterly unacceptable for any mission other than wounding. I've seen the damage they do, and while it's impressive, it poses little risk to the internal organs and they are a completely useless manstopper. Under attack the human body restricts blood flow to vital organs. The only way to cause significant bleeding is by damaging those organs, so superficial wounds, regardless of how extensive, have little effect.

Obviously, all else being equal, the bigger a hole you make though a vital organ, the faster the blood loss. I personally think 9mm is a little light, but then again I think ANY handgun round is a bit light. They are great for murdering a person, but they outright suck for stopping a person once they have started the process of murdering you.

Gun writers go on and on about the big and slow verses small and fast debate, but there's nothing to it. No handgun round developes enough energy to make the temporary wound cavity a factor. The only objective is to disrupt the CNS, and the ONLY two ways to do that are to sever the CNS directly or to lower the blood pressure enough that it suffocates. Everything else is just crap gun writers make up to sell magazines.

As a case in point, I personally know three deputies and a deputy K9 who sustained multiple wounds at close range from 12 gauge slug and 00 buckshot rounds. All of them survived (a blue-eyed miracle if ever there was one), since none of those huge, high energy projectiles hit a vital organ. All the deputies continued to return fire after being hit, so if anyone out there thinks they have a one-shot-stopper handgun round, think again. There is no such thing.

Sorry if I grossed anyone out, but talking about guns without discussing killing is a bit like talking about planes and not discussing flying...it's what they were meant to do, so if you're going to own one you might as well know something about it.

Next week I'll discuss the best way to suffocates someone with a pie...

[qmdv]

So Ravi, your saying that if The gun Trader that weighs in at I guess arround 275 (or more)(do not want to rile him up much) punches you in the chest and me at 180 punches you, you will not feel much diference.

Or a VW bug runs into your Corvair or me in my Dodge Pickup, no difference.

Mass is mass

Tim

[Skylane]

Ravi,

Never said the .40 was better than the 9. Just that the SO switched after the shooting to a heavier round. Now I've never shot a .40 either. But I have shot stuff from .380 to .44 mag. and I wouldn't want to be hit with any of them especially the larger calibers.

Comparing rifle rounds to pistol rounds it like a grape and a water melon. Mass is mass as Tim said.

Sorry to have fuzzed you up.

Smoother me with a Banana cream

See ya, Bub

[mr scout]

All I know is, I was taught two in the chest one in the head with my .45

And contrary to popular belief the .45 replaced the .38

And it was because the Asian leaders put bands around the soldiers balls to make them in so much pain they were fearless.

The .45 stopped them the .38 poked holes.

And for the law enforcement side I have it on pretty good authority that it depends on which way the Chiefs skirt blows up. For what there gonna carry.

Balance of little knowledge will be shared at campsite.

[qmdv]

And contrary to popular belief the .45 replaced the .38

Duh! I thought everybody knew that. What is popular belief?

http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.Vignettes ... 8th%201918

Sgt York's diary is a great read. Especialy the part on Oct 8th, 1918. York knew how to handle a 45. Also knew about shot placement. Every gun guy should know this story.

Tim

[Fisherman]

And contrary to popular belief the .45 replaced the .38

Duh! I thought everybody knew that. What is popular belief?

http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.Vignettes ... 8th%201918

Sgt York's diary is a great read. Especialy the part on Oct 8th, 1918. York knew how to handle a 45. Also knew about shot placement. Every gun guy should know this story.

Tim

Wow! Thanks for posting the link Tim. I've bookmarked it for my wife to read as well. I'm enjoying it very much.

[Quail]

This is from from memory, been a while and forgive if a date is off. Since the revolutionary war, the army used large caliber muzzle loading handguns, never less than .45. The first army cartridge pistol was the famous Colt SAA .45, adopted in 1873 durning the Indian War period. Then, as a now, in the 1890's, the US army and navy "modernized" by going to foreign smaller calibers, in long arms, the navy adopted the 6.5mm Lee and the army the .30 Krag. Both also went to small caliber handguns, as small as the .30 caliber Luger were tested in small numbers (1000), but after field trails the .38 double action revolver was the winner. But... during the unpleasantness in the Philipppines after the turn of the century, it was evident that the .38 did not have the stopping power of the .45. So... SSA Army .45's were rushed there, and the rest is legend. The army asked for bids for a new .45 caliber pistol, with the Colt .45 ACP (aka Browning) winning the contract in 1911. Other bidders included Savage and Luger, both rare collector items now.
Durning WWI large numbers of .45 ACP S&W and Colt revolvers were manufactured to supplement the 1911. Interesting to note that the Brits kept the .455 Webly until well after WWII, but most other European armies went to 9mm by the time of WWI.