Clouded Title

[flightlogic]

Well, should have known better... but it was just too good to pass up on that day. Purchased the Luscombe cash, without title search. Had fun for a year and a half, then the engine quit and she rolled over in the desert. Now, the insurance company is about to cut a check... but whoops.... there is a lien from 1958 in the record in OK City. A bank that went out of business in 1973 in California. Anybody been through the process to try and clear out a lien from so far back?
Doubt if I will ever find a former officer of the bank that will certify anything in writing. Have AOPA legal advice available, but have not asked yet. Thought I would see if anyone ever succeeded in doing something similar? Gonna be a shame if a $730 note costs me 20 grand over fifty years later. Live and Learn

[mauleCFI]

When I bought my first Maule, it had a 30 year old lien also that i found a year later. cost me $200 to have someone file the paperwork to remove it. I dont remember who did it for me, but I am sure AOPA can assist.

[Dale Moul]

In 1998 when I sold my Ercoupe the buyer paid AOPA fopr a title search, they found a Lien from 1972 and wanted $200.00 minumum to get it cleared because "the lien holder could require payment in full at any time". After a few hours of phone calls I found out that any lien that has had "no activity" in 3 years is not enforcable, and AOPA's title search program is in the buisness of selling B.S. for profit. If the bank listed on the lien has the letters "NA" at the end of the name, start with the "Office of Comptroller of Currency, office of consumers complaints" in Houston Texas (don't remember the phone no. google it), otherwise start with the state banking regulaters in the state the bank used to be in. The bank may not still exist in that name, but if it has merged or been bought out, whoever bought/merged with them is responsible for releasing the lien no matter how old it is. THEY have the burden of proof to show that it is still a valid lien, otherwise the law requires them to give you a lien release. In my case threatening to file a complaint with the OCC was enough to get a lien release out of Wells Fargo in less than 1 hour.

[flightlogic]

Thanks for the quick replies. Will look into some of the strategies mentioned.
My thought is the insurance company would like to stall on this... so they don't have to pay.
But, it is not realistic for a bank to come out of the woodwork 54 years later looking to take title to a wrecked plane. Time will tell though....

[Dale Moul]

In order for a bank to "come out of the woodwork and demand payment" the bank must prove that during the last 3 years either you have made a payment to them on the loan, or they have sent you a registered letter demanding payment. The insurance company's lawyers know all this, they are just stalling.

[WWhunter]

Not if they is relevant or not, but I purchased a 1959 Corvette many years ago and after applying for a title found out it had a lien on it from many years back. I sent a certified letter to the bank and it was returned, "No longer in Business" or something to that affect. The title agency accepted that has an invalid lien and issued me a new title.

[hotrod150]

..... Now, the insurance company is about to cut a check... but whoops.... there is a lien from 1958 in the record in OK City. A bank that went out of business in 1973 in California. Anybody been through the process to try and clear out a lien from so far back?....

And that issue is holding up the insurance settlement? What a bunch of bullshit! How about a heads-up on who your insurance agent & underwriter are? That way we can try to avoid them in the future.

[Cowboy]

When I was getting financing set up I came across an old lean (1963) on my first airplane. The loan company said "whow" on the loan until the lean was cleared. The original bank had be merged many years before, and that bank had been merged, and so on for five changes of ownership. The Chamber of Commerce and the state banking office helped me untangle the threads and found the current bank in question. I called the head of the loan department and explained about the (then) 32 year old lean. He did a computer check with me on the line and said that since he could find no record of the lean, the lean did not exist as far as the bank was concerned. I asked if he would send a note stating such to my loan company and the records office of the FAA releasing the lean. He said "no problem" and the letters went out that day. Both received the letters within a couple of days and ended up with a clear title.

[flightlogic]

I won't name names and indict the insurance company just yet. I sent them an email suggesting they ask the legal department the likelihood of any valid claim appearing 51 years later.
Suggested they pay in a timely manner to be "operating in good faith".

If they stonewall this request, then I will ratchet my efforts up a notch or two. In the meantime, thanks for all the input. Really appreciate it when fellow members take a moment to write.
We have hundreds of years of collective expertise on here... and it shows.

[flightlogic]

Just an update, since some guys wanted to know how the insurance claim came out.
I finally resorted to using the phrase: "In good faith".... with the insurance company.
They woke up and realized a lien from the 1950's was not going to hose up the paperwork on my wrecked Luscombe.

BUT..... I crashed May 29th. It is August 6th. I have seen no payment from the insurance company yet.

I called my agent today in Scottsdale to ask how long it usually takes on a totalled plane. They gave me the run around and said I would have to call the carrier myself. How is that for outstanding service. The web site says: We are all about Customer Service.... right !?!?!?

So here are the names and guilty parties: Cannon Aviation Insurance, in Scottsdale AZ.

Old United Casualty Insurance of Kansas.... Mike Swed. Agent

Think long and hard about using any of these companies for aircraft insurance. They cash the check pretty quickly. But they don't write them near as fast.

[patrol guy]

Best of luck to you!

I purchased a scout in Alabama many years ago. I paid AOPA to do the title search. It came out OK. At some point I traded that scout to a guy even up for a super cub. He had me checked out, still OK. Sometime later, I ended up buying the scout back a second time, without checking it out. Several years later I sold the scout again. That guy found a lien from 1974 from a bank that had been closed, sold , & merged, etc.

I tracked down the original seller to me, on his death bed. He was a big help getting it straightened out. A month or two later, I don't know what would have happened.

[29singlespeed]

So here are the names and guilty parties: Cannon Aviation Insurance, in Scottsdale AZ.

Dealing with Angie or Bob?

[flightlogic]

Well, I finally called Bob, the owner and complained. He said it should take 30 days to pay off a total loss claim.
Did not have a good answer about why this was 9 weeks now.
Lots of double talk about paper work. It appeared to me to be just like the stalling around the medical insurance companies do.
I fully expect to get paid... just not happy with the runaround.
Have my other aircraft with AOPA. Probably leave it there and cross my fingers I don't have to ever call in from some forced landing site again.

[172heavy]

I would like to say thanks to all for all the info, good stuff, not that I need it, but some day perhaps. Great thread!

[175 magnum]

Some years ago i was going to buy a 175 down nevada way. Did the faa titles search and stc/337 search. There was a lien from the early 70's at a seattle bank that had been bought out. It did not take much tracking to find out the new bank and their records showed the loan had been paid long ago but the lien had not been cleared off the faa books.(seems the banks like to do that on morgateges as well-common practise with them it seems) The bank said if i could find the loan holder it would be very easy to have him sign a document and it would be off in a couple of hr's. The guy on the loan was the guy i was dealing with so should be no big deal. Phoned to his house and he was out but his wife answered the phone. I said who i was and told her the deal and she went TOTALLY NUTS. Her words were " I wonderd where that F*****N SOB got the money to buy that BIMBO ********** those *******diamond earrings. When that****** comes walking throught that door i am going to cut his nuts off." I quitely hung up the phone and started looking for a different 175.
Later i thought can you just imagine that poor guy, he goes down to buy a couple of steaks to bareque and a sack of beer. He is walking up to the house thinking how good that will taste and he opens the door.
BANG-mood changer