Alc free gas disapearing

[tcraft]

Our alc free gas is now being shipped out of Montana So shipping has went up 50 cents now 4.60 a gal regular 3.75.
Montana is nearest suplier for eastern or .things just getting worse afraid it will soon become unavailable have been told it is because refinery has to meet gov alc quota bs
Is this happening elsware???

[courierguy]

I have a source here in Pocatello for 88 octane ethanol free mo gas for $3.82 per gallon. They have a big sign up bragging about it being ethanol free! I can no longer get it delivered from my old wholesaler, so I have rigged a 300 gallon tank to go get it.

[NimpoCub]

I'm thinking (that happens sometimes) that if you rebuild your carb with new gasket (etc) materials that the alchohol won't be an issue. Since this is being forced down our throats, maybe some kind of proactive stuff would be better than whining?? If we're gonna have to use it, can we make it work??

[Stol]

I'm thinking (that happens sometimes) that if you rebuild your carb with new gasket (etc) materials that the alchohol won't be an issue. Since this is being forced down our throats, maybe some kind of proactive stuff would be better than whining?? If we're gonna have to use it, can we make it work??

Ya still have to address the fuel lines, fuel valves, Fuel pumps, fuel bladders and every other thing that contacts that nasty alky poison..

[tcraft]

Also after 60 days it won't work in an atv so not going to try in plane no matter what

[Zzz]

Moved to the Fuel forum.

[courierguy]

I've burned 75 gallons of the 10% stuff in the Rotax in the last few months, and frankly can't tell the difference. Now that I have this other source for good old straight gas though and a way to haul it (pictures coming in a few days) I am happier, if nothing else I know from my auto experience with the ScanGauge, your mileage drops on ethanol, in my Yaris from mid 40's and higher to low to mid 40s, so about 2 or 3 MPG. Other hypermiling geeks say the same. I'll use it when I have to, and won't when I have another source, anything but avgas

Good call Zane!

[NimpoCub]

Also after 60 days it won't work in an atv so not going to try in plane no matter what

Pleeze describe "won't work" ... ya mean it won't run?

Does alchohol evaporate faster than gas?
Does the alchohol absorb moisture to the point that the gas gets diluted?
Does this beer make me ask stupid questions?

[tcraft]

Yes wil not burn brother had 500 gal delivered to ranch and after 60 days he noticed his Polaris ranger would barely run so took it to dealer and after a day they finally checked gas an discovered it was bad.
Had heard this type of thing before but believe it now coming from my brother.

[whee]

I have a source here in Pocatello for 88 octane ethanol free mo gas for $3.82 per gallon. They have a big sign up bragging about it being ethanol free! I can no longer get it delivered from my old wholesaler, so I have rigged a 300 gallon tank to go get it.

Conrad and Bishof in Idaho Falls have all grades of E0 available. About the same price as everyone else is charging for E10.

[lesuther]

E-10 has fewer Joules per gallon than straight gasoline. It requires more volume of fuel to get a plane engine tuned for avgas to go a mile than with straight gasoline. There's really no debate about it...it's chemistry and thermodynamics. http://feerc.ornl.gov/pdfs/pub_int_blends_rpt1_updated.pdf
This means a) you'll use more E-10 to maintain the same airspeed, and b) your engine will not make rated horsepower with E-10.

This isn't really a problem a lot of the time...but it is noticeable.

Alcohol is simply poison for a lot of rubbers and plastics. You can change out the seals and grommets, yes. But your carb (if so equipped) will be a) more prone to carb ice, and b) possibly vapor lock. Your range will be reduced.

That's all. And if you get water in your tank, you can get phase separation.

I think it's a can of worms.

[180Marty]

if nothing else I know from my auto experience with the ScanGauge, your mileage drops on ethanol, in my Yaris from mid 40's and higher to low to mid 40s, so about 2 or 3 MPG. Other hypermiling geeks say the same.

Courierguy, I think I asked a while back, is the E0 and E10 the same octane rating?

[jomac]

OK guys, pleez do yourself and your stuff a favor and stay ethanol free as long as u can! maybe develop a side business to help u write off the cost of avgas, and just put the good stuff in yur bird...the only thing i burn with ethanol is my daughters worn out honda car...ANYTHING with any kind of horsepower will flat detonate and or worse if u continually put ethanol thru it...FWIW, gasngrub on lincoln and woodruff in idaho falls, has clean 91 unleaded premium...for now...

[180Marty]

ANYTHING with any kind of horsepower will flat detonate and or worse if u continually put ethanol thru it

I'm picking my brand new 2012 Ford Focus with 12 to 1 compression ratio up tomorrow so I can burn E85. It says 38 mpg on gasoline so am hoping for mid 30's on the 85% ethanol. Should really perform with the ethanol fuel instead of the lowly 87 octane E0.

[whee]

gasngrub on lincoln and woodruff in idaho falls, has clean 91 unleaded premium...for now...

FYI...Kip can only get 88 E0 now; he dosen't even carry 91 anymore. I buy all my fuel at the grub.

[OregonMaule]

Also after 60 days it won't work in an atv so not going to try in plane no matter what

Come on...I have let E10 sit in stuff 6 months it still works for me. It could be the low clouds and drizzle in NW Oregon affects it in a positive way I guess.

[Rob]

Also after 60 days it won't work in an atv so not going to try in plane no matter what

Come on...I have let E10 sit in stuff 6 months it still works for me. It could be the low clouds and drizzle in NW Oregon affects it in a positive way I guess.

[lesuther]

Should really perform with the ethanol fuel instead of the lowly 87 octane E0.

Remember- octane rating has nothing to do with the energy of the fuel. Higher octane simply means higher compression ratios and father advanced ignition timing can be used to improve thermodynamic efficiency.



If you have a fixed compression ratio, and relatively fixed timing, alcohol blends will net you less mpg. Anti-knock ignition sensors in cars will advance farther when you are burning alcohol. Not so in planes. In fact, the real advantages of alcohol from an octane rating perspective really can't be realized until you are pretty much burning it straight up, with very high compression ratios and timing advances. At that point, the thermodynamic efficiency improvements overcome the additional induction cooling penalty and lower energy density of the alcohol fuel. Here is an interesting (but pointed) article:
http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2009/03/07/fuel-efficiency-of-ethanol-in-the-real-world/

The alcohol blend thing is a racket. The ethanol subsidies ended, so now the ethanol lobby wants to get a subsidy through the back door. They don't even make claims that E-15 is significantly cleaner than E-10 (or even E-5)- only that it is *possible* to burn the stuff, and they are fine enough gents to deserve a law written just for them.
http://www.ogj.com/articles/print/vol-110/issue-4a/general-interest/epa-raises-allowable.html

It's not being cynical- it's just paying attention.

[lesuther]

A lot of folks believe that alcohol is a "home grown" fuel. Corn, the feedstock for virtually all of domestic ethanol production, would only be 30% to 50% as productive without the use of a lot of fertilizers.

http://www.ipni.net/ppiweb/ppinews.nsf/0/7de814bec3a5a6ef85256bd80067b43c/$FILE/Crop%20Yield.pdf

It is a debate as to whether we could even meet our own food needs without fertilizers, given our current diet. But the need for fertilizers isn't really the issue. Foreign oil is.

However, we import something 80% of our NPK from abroad.
http://www.fertilizer.org/ifa/HomePage/STATISTICS/Production-and-trade

Most comes from energy intensive, petro-intensive processes that are necessary to have the food/cost standard of living we enjoy here in the US.

The summary is the more we intensify domestic ethanol production to "offset dependence on foreign oil", the more we directly increase our "dependence on foreign oil". There is no discernible degree of separation between the two- one is slightly less obvious to most, that's all.

This topic is very well traveled in the energy world, and most folks who have to add up the numbers will end up rolling their eyes when politicians get involved to rant and rave about energy independence via ethanol.
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Back on topic, my off-field local supplier went out more than a year ago. There is mogas on field for $0.20 or so less than avgas, and a place about an hour or so round trip sells it for about a buck a gallon less than avgas. I wish it were closer.

[180Marty]

lesuther, here is an email from a friend that designs ethanol plants. They are spending their money to do research to prove the BS you want to believe is wrong. The oil companies do not want competition and will do whatever it takes to attain it. How much actual research have you done? I'm guessing the Focus engine I'm getting is retarded quite a bit when the 87 octane is being burned and advanced when E85 is burned. Also, I understand that ethanol expands more that gas when it is burned creating more push when the piston is going down.

This is why many who contend a btu is just a btu don’t recognize mileage benefits with ethanol.

Martin



I like your comment on Domestic Fuels. What my brother is saying here is correct in my view. We are in the final stages of reviewing data in which we simply took 3 each, 2011 vehicles to Mercedes Benz and complied with certification. It is a very complex issue but E30 did very nicely.



Some items I can share-

Particulate emissions went up when we didn’t increase the amount of aromatics but simply changed the distillation of aromatics. This is what Honda had demonstrated over a year ago and CARB went out of their way to discredit.



E30 performed very well. Not that E85 didn’t do good but the fuel flow and additional cooling effect limited some of the emission benefits. This is not due to the fuel as much as OEM’s don’t have to surpass emission requirements, just meet them.



I am seeing that the standard EPA procedures to change from fuel to fuel doesn’t allow vehicles to fully adapt, primarily the ignition. Emission control takes priority in short fuel trim and long term fuel trim can take over 40 miles. This is why many who contend a btu is just a btu don’t recognize mileage benefits with ethanol. People need to run two or three consecutive fills to make any judgment on mileage. We had two of three vehicles get equal mileage with E30 for the heavier of the three drive cycles. Driving habits do matter in all of this.



Take Care