Inactive engine

[littlewheelinback]

So I am looking at an aircraft for sale with an 0-200 in it. The engine has less than 10 hours on an overhaul, but the overhaul was done in '06 (more than 5 years ago). The engine is said to be started periodically. It seems to me that the engine cannot be run for very long on these starts, maybe 10 or 15 min or the engine would have more hours on it. The aircraft is hangared near Denver (dry country). The rest of the plane LOOKS to be nice, although I have repeatedly found pictures to be a poor judge (both good and bad) of an aircraft.
It is my understanding that an engine that sits for a long time is very suspect. I also have read that starting an engine without letting it get hot enough for long enough to eliminate moisture in the crankcase is very bad for an engine.
Should I even consider this aircraft? Should I consider it, but treat it as an aircraft with a suspect engine?

thanks,

Daryl

[NimpoCub]

Yep, "suspect engine" for sure.
If it has not been "pickled" there will be rust in there... how much is the suspect.
IMHO, it's worth the airframe + a core hanging on front.

Of course, if you REALLY WANT this particular plane, just get your wallet out!

[kg]

but treat it as an aircraft with a suspect engine?

Yes

[whee]

Sitting that long with so few hours I would consider it only if you go in to it planning on a overhaul. If you don't have to do one then great. I'd do a top end tear down to get a good look at the very least.

[182 STOL driver]

I'd add 100 hrs a year for the engine and 25 hrs for airframe to whats there for value . Cont. 0-200 is not too bad -You can expect to see rust . Just be careful to get a A&P YOU KNOW AND TRUST -NOT "SELLERS" recommendation .

[gbflyer]

I have a red tagged O-200 crank that sat out in the rain (SE AK 100" rainfall annually) that did not rust for 2 years. I would not worry about the bottom at all, especially if it has been hangared in Denver. Cylinders could be borescoped for corrosion or better yet have one pulled and inspect the cam at the same time. Expense should be minimal for that service.

If it all checks out and you can buy it right, I wouldn't hesitate, personally. It's an O-200, tough as nails.

gb

[Jaerl]

I would be concerned more as to why the plane wasn't flow after being rebuilt. My 175 sat for 24 years and the oil tests were clear and compression came up the more I flew it. If the price is right and oil pressure and compression is good I would say go for it. Oil tests are cheap and if the guy will wait for the results, make the deal contingent on a clear oil test. If you buy it, run some MM Oil in it so you don't stick a valve. New engines that sit seem to have more problems with that than old ones. Everything is tight and old sticky oil doesn't help. Good Luck

[GumpAir]

Yup. Pull the top and get a good look at everything. Cheap, and gets you started from a known point.


Gump

[ajfriz]

Check the cylinders with a borescope. The bottom should be fine, and I wouldn't be too worried on the top either. My c-85 sat for 20 yrs without any rust in a similar climate as Denver. The thing that I don't like hearing is that it was started periodically. Running for short periods of time does not burn off the moisture in the engine and can actually collect moisture. A borescope can give you an idea if these periodic runs have hurt the engine.

[hotrod150]

Results can vary. One of my buddies has owned several airplanes /engines that sat for years & has had good results with them-- an A65, O-200,O-235, and O-320. Another bought an airplane with a 320 that flew only one month out of the year for about 10 years, and after flying it for a few years had the cam start coming apart resulting in a forced landing followed by an overhaul. Lycomings do seem worse than at least the small Continentals in this regard but it's a crap shoot with either one.

[mtv]

As Bill pointed out, you cannot compare Lycomings and Continentals in this context. In the Lycoming engines, the camshaft and followers are in the TOP of the engine, and thus oil will drain off of them over time. Since the top of the engine is where moist warm air goes after the engine is run, guess where that moisture collects on shut down? Cam and lifters.

On the other hand, Continental engines have the camshaft in the lower part of the engine. Oil is constantly in contact with the cam. Likelihood of CAM problems on a Continental from corrosion is MUCH lower than for a Lycoming.

It is HIGHLY likely that a Lycoming engine that's sat for a few years without being run WILL suffer cam and/or lifter spalling when it finally is run, BUT that damage typically won't show up for a few hundred hours. If you're buying a Lycoming that's sat, plan on a replacement cam and lifters.

And, actually, about the worst thing you can do with an engine in storage is to ground run it periodically, or even turn it over by hand. Neither one does any good, and they can do a lot of harm.

MTV

[clippwagon]

Disclaimer: I'm not an engine guy.

...but, was the engine properly broke in during the ten hours after overhaul? If not, is it too late for that to happen?

[dirtstrip]

Disclaimer: I'm not an engine guy.

...but, was the engine properly broke in during the ten hours after overhaul? If not, is it too late for that to happen?

Run the engine with straight grade mineral oil as if you are the one breaking it in. Don't make rapid throttle changes and be sure to load the engine. If oil use stabilizes then you are lucky. But if it is an oil hog and plugs are oil carboned then figure that the cylinders are glazed and the rings didn't seat. Depending on the oil consumption consider if you want to do more. The cheapest and easiest thing to try is to soak the cylinders overnight with Marvel Mystery Oil to remove glazing. Glazing is nothing more than oil polished into the cylinder wall metal keeping the rings from seating and causing them to let oil by. It can be dissolved off without disassembling the cylinders. Be sure to have at least the top plugs out when you rotate the crank to spread it on the cylinder walls and rings. Otherwise you could hydraulic lock up. Afterward take all plugs out and spin with the starter to spit out the excess oil, drain the oil pan, change the filter and install new oil, plugs too and start over with your break in. This was told to me by an aircraft mechanic once but I had done something similar myself years ago.

I had a 1947 farmall H, that had cracked a head. I decided to tear the rest down too because of anti freeze leakage. When I noticed there was no wear ridge on the sleeves at the top of the stroke where the rings stop, I decided to just re-ring the old pistons and instead of replacing the sleeves I just honed WD 40 into the cylinder walls using a drill to spin it. The black smudge just rolled out of those cylinder sleeve walls. 20 years later that H is still doing its job. Very little oil usage.

This is not meant to replace the advice of the bore scope inspection or the once over of your trusted mechanic.

[littlewheelinback]

Thanks for all the advice. My mechanic also said he wouldn't worry too much about the 0-200...but that I should have it bore scoped to look for rust. Since it has been restored by a non A&P my other concern is that all the repairs and changes have been properly logged and signed off. Looks good and is light, too. I might go to Jeff-Co to see it.

[Cary]

Let's face it, any airplane purchase is a crap shoot to some extent. But a little used engine adds to the adverse chances. Without totally disassembling it, you can't be sure. So since no one will be doing that, what are you possibly facing? Best case scenario--no problems. Worst case scenario--the engine fails after a few hours, and you make an off airport landing.

I had the latter event. When I bought my airplane, its Lycoming 360 had been run only a few hours a year for many years--less than 10 during the preceding year. It was an Oklahoma airplane, so I didn't expect much rust. It ran well, burned very little oil, etc., and there was no visible rust bore-scoping it. But right at 15 hours after I took delivery, it lost all oil pressure, threw a rod through the top of the case, and I landed in a field. On tear down, it appeared that a main bearing had spun, blocking an oil passage.

Yet I've known people who purchased airplanes which hadn't been used for years, the proverbial "barn find", and they didn't have any problems at all. So you never know.

But taking into account the real probability of problems developing sooner than later, make your offer on that basis, that the engine won't last as long as it would have had it been properly pickled or run regularly.

Cary

[SixTwoLeemer]

My Lycoming 0-360 sat for almost 5 years with the owner running it up occasionally for short periods..

I thought I had avoided the grim reaper when the first 30 hr. oil change showed little fod in the filter but as mentioned above, it takes about a hundred hours for the damage to accelerate and it did and the filters began to get worse and worse.

I agree that its a crap-shoot anyway, no matter what the logbooks say. If the plane is straight and its what you want, buy it and enjoy every "free" hour you get and smile that you own an airplane! Personally I prefer a pristine airframe...engines are replaceable wear-items.... its the dents in the airframe that I loathe.

Many of my friends are still dreaming, waiting for the perfect plane with new engine, garmin panel, beautiful paint to come along for half price. The rest of us are out flying.

[gbflyer]

I agree that its a crap-shoot anyway, no matter what the logbooks say. If the plane is straight and its what you want, buy it and enjoy every "free" hour you get and smile that you own an airplane! Personally I prefer a pristine airframe...engines are replaceable wear-items.... its the dents in the airframe that I loathe.

Many of my friends are still dreaming, waiting for the perfect plane with new engine, garmin panel, beautiful paint to come along for half price. The rest of us are out flying.

You bet. Even brand new ones have their issues, and the manufacturer/rebuilder is going to make every effort to hide from you when things go south. Just what one businessman does to another these days, regrettably.

[OregonMaule]

From my experience: This thread has a lot more.
posting.php?mode=quote&f=14&p=109402

In 2001 my M7 had a prop strike.The engine went to Lycoming for the new crank and strike inspection, then sat from 2001 to 2006 with 30 minutes on it because the owner was afraid to fly it.

I got it and it has run perfect ever since. Then oil analysis tipped me that something was not right. 90% of the guys here and on the Maule site said open it, so I did and the rest as they say history.

I would highly discourage anyone from buying a plane with an airplane with an engine that set not pickled. If not pickled negotiate a tear down inspection. If you don't you are gambling. I gambled and lost.

Good day

[mtv]

From my experience: This thread has a lot more.
posting.php?mode=quote&f=14&p=109402

In 2001 my M7 had a prop strike.The engine went to Lycoming for the new crank and strike inspection, then sat from 2001 to 2006 with 30 minutes on it because the owner was afraid to fly it.

I got it and it has run perfect ever since. Then oil analysis tipped me that something was not right. 90% of the guys here and on the Maule site said open it, so I did and the rest as they say history.

I would highly discourage anyone from buying a plane with an airplane with an engine that set not pickled. If not pickled negotiate a tear down inspection. If you don't you are gambling. I gambled and lost.

Good day

Again, you cannot compare Lycoming engines with Continentals in this particular regard, for the reasons noted earlier. There is still some risk with a Continental that's sat for a while, but the risk is much lower, and the consequences typically less expensive than for the Lycomings.

MTV

[OregonMaule]

From my experience: This thread has a lot more.
posting.php?mode=quote&f=14&p=109402

In 2001 my M7 had a prop strike.The engine went to Lycoming for the new crank and strike inspection, then sat from 2001 to 2006 with 30 minutes on it because the owner was afraid to fly it.

I got it and it has run perfect ever since. Then oil analysis tipped me that something was not right. 90% of the guys here and on the Maule site said open it, so I did and the rest as they say history.

I would highly discourage anyone from buying a plane with an airplane with an engine that set not pickled. If not pickled negotiate a tear down inspection. If you don't you are gambling. I gambled and lost.

Good day

Again, you cannot compare Lycoming engines with Continentals in this particular regard, for the reasons noted earlier. There is still some risk with a Continental that's sat for a while, but the risk is much lower, and the consequences typically less expensive than for the Lycomings.

MTV

Yeah, I know. I am speaking in general terms not specifically cam issues. Just be mentally prepared for issues if the engine has not been cared for properly. You might get lucky, you might not.
If the price is right it doesn't really matter. Just don't let the seller BS you that this engine is as good as one that has been cared for properly.

Good day