Short pattern.....how small is too small?

[DavidB.]

I have a question that relates to this thread. We have AWOS at S10 When you call it up, it will usualy say the runway in use, or say the runway is at the pilots discretion or listen for traffic. Often when it is calm, it says use runway 20.
The other day I am doing touch and goes on 20. I have a 6knt wind from 190. A Cessna 185 departing north calls that he is departing from runway 02 as I am on the downwind for 20. I extend my downwind and turn to base behind him, and then his buddy makes a call to depart on 02 just as I was making my call for final (stepped on my transmission). I called final again but decide to go around since I got no reply from him and was not sure he heard me. Are these guys just dicks who can't follow the rules? Or did I miss something in ground school? We have a few students around our airport now, and are trying to get more interested. I think that when there are students and newly licensed pilots around, everyone should pay extra attention to following the rules and accepted guidelines for airport safety. Us new guys only know what we have read, been tested on, and whats been drilled into our head by our instructors.

I am pretty sure the two guys departing to the north used 02 to avoid the extra time it would take to turn left after takeoff. Must have been an important mission.

And, since I am asking airport etiquette questions, if the last 5 airplanes just took off on 02, and there is a wind out of the north variable at 6 to 8, but you and your 8 buddies (who were just getting fuel, not from this airport) are heading south, is it ok to all line up at the 20 end of the runway even though the last five aircraft have used 02, and there is a plane taxiing to 02 when you decided on 20?

I am not bitching and moaning here. I really do not know if I should be annoyed by this, or if maybe I should have taxiied back to 20 and lined up with the 8 guys departing to the south. I didn't, I just used 02 because I had full fuel, it was hot out, and from what I have seen 6 to 8 knt wind turns to 8 to 12 really quick here and I am too new at this to know how far I can push it with a downwind take off.
Educate me here.

[hicountry]

I talked this over with my CFI. I explained what we were discussing. I will put this to someone from the FAA. I kinda agree with MTV and GT.
If I can't get a straight answer, I guess I'll trade in my wings for a couple of electric wheels because I've had it all wrong from the beginning.

[Skystrider]

DavidB,

Personally, I choose to always take off into the wind. If guys are taking off the other direction, then I check to make sure there isn't some reason they are doing that that maybe I don't know. Maybe for noise reasons or terrain. Up to 5 mph I will get in line and take off downwind with them if there is a lot of traffic that I would screw up trying to change runway direction.

When it gets to 10 mph or higher and they are still taking off downwind I will park my plane and wait for everyone to leave before taking off into the wind. It just isn't worth the grief I know I am going to get trying to reverse the flow that has been set up. In my mind a 10 mph tailwind on takeoff can be iffy. That isn't to say there may be good reasons for it like one way strips where the take off is downhill. But I am talking about reasonably normal airports.

Please note that this is just my personal minimums. I am sure others have different minimums.

[randylervold]

Regardless of what is legal, common sense should prevail here. When no one is heard or observed in the pattern I will announce my departure and call "left closed traffic, abbreviated pattern" then fly a very tight pattern, which the Carbon Cub just loves to do. When doing anything non-standard such as an extended base pattern entry I just say "traffic permitting", then if anyone else is around I amend my procedure to conform to the standard pattern.

[courierguy]

Another factor in the runway used: some guys with Bushwheels will go to great lengths (pun intended) to NOT taxi long distances on asphalt just to take off the same direction some guy in an aircraft with 8:00's did, who probably never even thinks twice of a multi thousand foot taxi, tire wear wise. I know for a fact that I have chosen to take off downwind (maybe 8 mph with almost 3,000' of runway available making that a non problem) just because otherwise I was looking at a taxi on asphalt of at least 1500'. When I do this I make damn sure no one is in the pattern visually and by radio, not just radio. All of this is yet another reason to stay away from asphalt airports as much as possible

[Blu]

All of this is yet another reason to stay away from asphalt airports as much as possible

now who can argue with that

Seems like common sense and courtesy are the rule.
Things most pilots have in abundance.

Except those damn 180 drivers

[Blu]

All of this is yet another reason to stay away from asphalt airports as much as possible

now who can argue with that!!

Seems like common sense and courtesy are the rule.
Things most pilots have in abundance.

Except those damn 180 drivers

[mtv]

Ya know, folks.....many pilots whine and snivel about "all these regulations we have to abide by", and all the FAA types out there, hiding in the brush, just waiting for someone to violate a regulation so they can violate them.

When in fact, this country has the LOOSEST air regulations on the planet. Think about it, none of these regulations or even the "good operating practices" are really asking very much of us as pilots.

But, there's always some jackass out there, trying to push the limits, just so's he can see if he can single-handely bring about yet another federal aviation regulation.....

The regulations and "good operating practices" are in fact based on good common sense and rely on a good dose of common COURTESY. And, that is something that I don't often see around airports.

If we'd all just be courteous to others, AND keep our heads up and on a swivel, the regulations would remain simple and fairly easy to understand. I for one am all for keeping them that way, at least to the extent they are today. Let's not justify more regulations, folks.

MTV

[jomac]

like to be close enough to glide there if need be, should the fire go out...tight patterns like at JC seem to work good...even in a heavy thing like my 182...

[lowflyin'G3]

Holysh!t.....

What Mike says about the 91 ops.

I fall under 137.45 for most of my flying so you guys are just confusing me for the most part but common sense and common courtesy should prevail to allow common safety to prevail, radio's or not.

[hotrod150]

.......If I am in the pattern then the pattern is mine. The Nordo guy should have come in over the strip and looked for other planes, correct? The guy with the radio should have said something on his approach to the field, correct? ....

"The pattern is yours"? It's yours, but also anyone's who is in it. I'm not aware of any reg's requiring the nordo guy to overfly & look, nor for the guy with the radio to make a call inbound.

[hotrod150]

........When there is other traffic in the pattern, I try to get into the pattern that everyone else is doing, and use the two minute rule, and COMMUNICATE!!.........

What's the two-minute rule?

[shortfielder]

Except those damn 180 drivers

Blu, Blu, Blu
God will get you for making statements like that

[hicountry]

........When there is other traffic in the pattern, I try to get into the pattern that everyone else is doing, and use the two minute rule, and COMMUNICATE!!.........

What's the two-minute rule?

Turbulance !!!

[M6RV6]

M6RV6 wrote:
.......If I am in the pattern then the pattern is mine. The Nordo guy should have come in over the strip and looked for other planes, correct? The guy with the radio should have said something on his approach to the field, correct? ....


"The pattern is yours"? It's yours, but also anyone's who is in it. I'm not aware of any reg's requiring the nordo guy to overfly & look, nor for the guy with the radio to make a call inbound.
minimums are for busting
hotrod150
Posts: 2703
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:47 pm
Location: Port Townsend, WA

Hotrod
Your point is exactly what I have been trying to get across!
If I am in the pattern and a NORDO or a guy with the radio who does not need to say anything is landing at the same airport then it has to be heads up and pay attention.

Also back to the first post? we are at an airport with no one else in the pattern!!

?If I am on final and the other guy is on final from the other direction and we are both the same elevation, who's in the right? Both A holes?, Both dead? AS MTV and others have said Common Courtesy and good judgement, which some of us just do not have!!

When I'm flying around just for the heck of it and there is a bigger or working aircraft anywhere close I'll get out of the way so they can make a buck and maybe use a gallon less fuel to do it!
Thanks GT

[wannabe]

My personal view is that it is not a matter of:
Who is right, BUT who is left over!

[Emory Bored]

Ya know, folks.....many pilots whine and snivel about "all these regulations we have to abide by", and all the FAA types out there, hiding in the brush, just waiting for someone to violate a regulation so they can violate them.

When in fact, this country has the LOOSEST air regulations on the planet. Think about it, none of these regulations or even the "good operating practices" are really asking very much of us as pilots.

But, there's always some jackass out there, trying to push the limits, just so's he can see if he can single-handely bring about yet another federal aviation regulation.....

The regulations and "good operating practices" are in fact based on good common sense and rely on a good dose of common COURTESY. And, that is something that I don't often see around airports.

If we'd all just be courteous to others, AND keep our heads up and on a swivel, the regulations would remain simple and fairly easy to understand. I for one am all for keeping them that way, at least to the extent they are today. Let's not justify more regulations, folks.

MTV

The airport I will base from, when I'm flying again instead of flying this Lazyboy, has a crosswind ALL the time. To make it more interesting, it has noise abatement procedures calling for departures to the north and landings to the south with the usual disclaimers about safety and pilot discretion. Let me just say this about that; I have one vivid memory of making a normal radio announced departure from an uncontrolled field when I spotted a Nordo guy making a downwind landing right at me. Closing fast. I aborted takeoff and ran into the grass on the right side of the runway. No damage, no harm. The down wind guy aborted his landing, and disappeared over the horizon as far as I could tell. Now that one scared me, and I ain't askeert of NOTHIN'. I was 16 at the time and just post first solo. I wonder how often that happens at N86 (Spanish Springs, NV)? I've often wondered if the other guy is still alive.

[DavidB.]

My few little questions about pattern etiquiette aside, the more I read about the issues at other peoples airports, the more I love S10. Cheap hangars, nice people, never a chance of having noise abatement issues (look at it on Google Earth, you will see why that won't happen) and sheltered from weather a lot of the time. I may not have VFR weather beyond the top of the canyon, but at least I can fly around the airport most days. Plus we have class G to 4500 MSL over the airport.

[58Skylane]

My few little questions about pattern etiquiette aside, the more I read about the issues at other peoples airports, the more I love S10. Cheap hangars, nice people, never a chance of having noise abatement issues (look at it on Google Earth, you will see why that won't happen) and sheltered from weather a lot of the time. I may not have VFR weather beyond the top of the canyon, but at least I can fly around the airport most days. Plus we have class G to 4500 MSL over the airport.

I'm liking that strip to the north of you! That a house or Business?

[born2flyak]

From my own experience, I'm a firm believer that the pattern should be flown close and high enough to make it to the runway if and when the engine should fail, possibly excluding immediately after takeoff. That usually requires maintaining 1000' feet or more above the field until base leg, and a very close pattern. I practice it regularly without passengers on board during the summer months and it can be somewhat alarming what the glide slope can look like in a 180 degree turn, especially with any kind of load on board. Remember to step cool the engine approaching the pattern, and see how far it really goes at best glide. Also remember that best glide is figured for gross weight and flaps up, and when you have a close landing field below, a lower airspeed can allow more time aloft while covering less ground (thus allowing for more time to troubleshoot). Best glide only allows more distance to be covered from a certain altitude. Explaining to the NTSB why I landed in the trees short of the runway while on downwind, base, or final would be embarassing to me.

On the other hand, doing any short field work on the edge of the aircraft's performance (usually requiring "dragging it in"), none of this may be possible and that is just a risk that must be first evaluated and either accepted, or another field/strip must be selected.