Lycoming O-540 making metal+2012 Annual update

[OregonMaule]

Looks like I won't make it to TBO. I fly behind a 2000 O-540 B4B5. 970 TTSN The oil analysis said elevated levels metal. Just in the caution zone. If I change it at 25 hr. it is normal but has higher levels of metal than it had 200 hours ago.

I run Exxon Elite 20-50. Champion filter. Normal change both 25-35 hr. Once in awhile will go to 40-50hr. I fly most weeks. Once or twice a year it will sit 2-3 weeks.

I think the problem came from 2001 prop strike. Lycoming rebuilt. Sat till 2006 with 30 minutes on the engine.

Last change was 35 hours. I cut the filter and washed it out in solvent. I ran a magnet through the solvent and got a very small amount. Very fine like flower. Think of a pencil eraser cut into 6 pieces. The amount was equal to 1/6 maybe 1/4, not much.

Took the magnet to the local engine shop, a well respected business, never heard a bad word about them. The owner said the only metal that looks like my sample is cam VS lifter.

I am looking for your knowledge related to this issue.

How long before it really starts to get bad and I got to tear into it?
What should I do now?
Is it OK to keep running it and monitor it every 25 hr?
How much should a tear down inspect, replace cam and lifters for sure, cost?
Does the engine have to come out to do the cam?
While they are in there I was thinking rings, bearings and freshen up the heads?
Anything you want to add I will appreciate.

Good day...Rob

[messenger]

i think it is easier to borescope a cont than a lyc on the cam and lifters. scope it and take a look. watch the wear and go for a top overhaul before it gets bad. i can tell you from personal exp that these engines will take a lot of abuse before catastrophic failure. others will chime in with more info. RLM

[TomD]

Rob;

It might be worth it to start an oil analysis program and use that as part of your tracking.

The lab I use is: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

[mr scout]

Rob

Cams/lifters usually make flakes. The sitting with only 35 hrs wasn't good it takes time to get a coating of corrosion protection. Which you will never get with elite or other semi synthetics. Fine powder could even be a gear problem. XC 20-50 with cam guard added would be a much better choice. The lab can tell you if its rings, cam, or gears. Don't delay get it tested it may be a broken ring and contrary to popular belief your compression gauge wont alert you till its to late. If your changing the cam your splitting the case. I would see what the lab said then decide your options

And before I get flamed ( I used to run elite and aeroshell) when you start running turbo-charged engines hard you will find out the real story behind the market hype of semi-synthetics. Ram aircraft has done extensive testing and give a thumbs down to semi- or full synthetics

Floyd

[GroundLooper]

Depending on the type of metal can help narrow it down.

The 150 was making metal for a while. It turned out to be the starter gear. Got it replaced and the problem went away. I'll keep my fingers crossed it's something like that and not the $$$ alternative.

[M6RV6]

I'll get flamed also!!!!
XC 20-50 and cam guard
Only way to go!!
Switch Now!!!!!
OIL analysis Start NOW!
Do a couple of 25 hour analysis, then switch to 50 hour oil and filter if maintaining.
OH, did I say Switch to XC 20-50?
GT
Hope it quits!
Just my $.02

[Stol]

Looks like I won't make it to TBO. I fly behind a 2000 O-540 B4B5. 970 TTSN The oil analysis said elevated levels metal. Just in the caution zone. If I change it at 25 hr. it is normal but has higher levels of metal than it had 200 hours ago.

I run Exxon Elite 20-50. Champion filter. Normal change both 25-35 hr. Once in awhile will go to 40-50hr. I fly most weeks. Once or twice a year it will sit 2-3 weeks.

I think the problem came from 2001 prop strike. Lycoming rebuilt. Sat till 2006 with 30 minutes on the engine.

Last change was 35 hours. I cut the filter and washed it out in solvent. I ran a magnet through the solvent and got a very small amount. Very fine like flower. Think of a pencil eraser cut into 6 pieces. The amount was equal to 1/6 maybe 1/4, not much.

Took the magnet to the local engine shop, a well respected business, never heard a bad word about them. The owner said the only metal that looks like my sample is cam VS lifter.

I am looking for your knowledge related to this issue.

How long before it really starts to get bad and I got to tear into it?
What should I do now?
Is it OK to keep running it and monitor it every 25 hr?
How much should a tear down inspect, replace cam and lifters for sure, cost?
Does the engine have to come out to do the cam?
While they are in there I was thinking rings, bearings and freshen up the heads?
Anything you want to add I will appreciate.

Good day...Rob

Rob.... don't freak out just yet.....

A lifter failing will make flakes,,,, a cam failing will make a fine slurry like you describe... Easy way to tell is just get a dial indictor and check lift on all the valves. If the cam or lifter is taking a dive it will show up in the readings.. Takes about 20 minutes..

Ben.

[jomac]

totally a guess rob, maybe the low octane auto stuff is hard on the motor...? my 540 runs a little hot, and i like good fuel all the time, be it damn expensive. in our hot-rod stuff we build in our shop, low octane is a definite killer. while yours i know is stc'd for the stuff...detonation is a possibility as to harming pistons...just a thought...

[OregonMaule]

Thanks Floyd, Craig, Ben, Joe, George.
Anybody else finding small amounts of metal in there filter?

Good day

[GumpAir]

Small amounts???? Hell, I find pieces big enough to make a boat anchor out of.

Gump

[SixTwoLeemer]

I wouldnt worry until you start seeing part numbers in the filter

Seriously though, start an oil analysis and watch the trends. No panic-

And always always always use XC 20W-50 and Camgaurd. No bandwagon here. Elite will do nothing for a sitting engine. Straight up.

If it is a prollem, hopefully its confined to cylinders.

[Southern Boy]

I've had two engines make metal in the past. One, I kept running, monitoring, trying to figure out what happened (ultimately it failed....catastrophically)

Second one, couldn't find the source. The first experience had tainted my viewpoint, so tore the engine down. Was a bad bearing, but hadn't damaged anything (except the bearing, of course) so it was a cheap overhaul.

My personal rule of thumb is that if the amount of metal is enough to cover Lincoln's head on a penny, then a teardown is in order.If metal is increasing, or there is something showing increased wear, a teardown is in order. There are some good shops that will do do a teardown, inspection, and reassembly at a pretty reasonable price. You don't have to do a "new limits" overhaul, if you have an otherwise good core. Especially if you're keeping the plane, then you can make the determinations as you go as to what you want to do.


I've had 3 complete engine failures. Two of them were catastrophic internal failures. It ain't a lot of fun.

[mtv]

Man, according to all the "experts" here, my engine should be pure junk by now....been running EXXON Elite for MANY years now. I also started using Cam Guard when it first came out. My engine sits more than I'd like, but it's the Cam Guard that helps. Elite is a good oil, and i'll keep using it.

We use Aeroshell 15-50 in all our school airplanes. Some of those engines sit all summer in our humidity with no preservation. We run those engines to 2500 hours, and it's rare to have ANY engine open before that time. And, they don't use Cam Guard, either.

Synthetic oils are not the boogey man that many on this list make them out to be. If you like the non synthetic oils because they're cheaper, good on you, but if you're going to suggest that synthetic oils "destroy engines", you need to come up with some solid documentation. And, if that were out there, nobody would be producing synthetic oil base for aircraft use.

Nevertheless, i believe that Cam Guard is well worth the additional cost for corrosion prevention. It provides additives that NO aircraft oil does. Additives are what make an oil or break it, generally, and Exxon has a good additive package. But, again, I wouldn't run ANY oil without cam guard.

I use the stuff in my motorcycle in winter as well.

MTV

[PA12_Pilot]

With 975 hours on your engine you probably have done somewhere between 20 and 40 oil analyses. If you have data from at least 20 oil analyses you can create control charts that will tell you if the elevated metal levels are due to normal variation or "special" variation. You can do it all in a spreadsheet in about an hour, and it will tell you right away if you have something to worry about.

[Jaerl]

One thing I have never seen for aircraft but they are used a lot on VW engines is a magnetic oil drain plug. Might not hurt to try to magnetize yours to catch some of the metal.

[EZFlap]

Ram aircraft has done extensive testing and give a thumbs down to semi- or full synthetics

Tangentially to this issue, my friend Terry Bowden at RAM Aircraft is a first class, highly educated expert on this stuff. He is an FAA-DER on engines and engine installations, as well as a vintage aircraft DAR. He also personally flies vintage aircraft with the third wheel located under the rudder. For whatever my opinion is worth, if Terry was involved in testing the success or failure of any airplane engine oils, I'd consider his word as credible.

All of the ideas presented by others in this thread are probably very good advice. Especially the oil analysis by a good lab. Call and ask the lab what you can do to mitigate the problem... perhaps doing oil changes more frequently than otherwise needed? If their spectrometers and machines are sensitive enough, then perhaps they can even see small changes and ID some trends sooner than every 25 hours?

[ajfriz]

Ram aircraft has done extensive testing and give a thumbs down to semi- or full synthetics

Tangentially to this issue, my friend Terry Bowden at RAM Aircraft is a first class, highly educated expert on this stuff. He is an FAA-DER on engines and engine installations, as well as a vintage aircraft DAR. He also personally flies vintage aircraft with the third wheel located under the rudder. For whatever my opinion is worth, if Terry was involved in testing the success or failure of any airplane engine oils, I'd consider his word as credible.

All of the ideas presented by others in this thread are probably very good advice. Especially the oil analysis by a good lab. Call and ask the lab what you can do to mitigate the problem... perhaps doing oil changes more frequently than otherwise needed? If their spectrometers and machines are sensitive enough, then perhaps they can even see small changes and ID some trends sooner than every 25 hours?

X2.

Terry Bowden definitely knows his stuff.

[OregonMaule]

After listening to a lot of good advise here and on the Maule site I have decided to pull 2 jugs off and visually inspect the cam. Probably do some measuring of the lobs too. Most likely it will be a cam lifter issue. My engine shop said cam lifter when I took the magnet to him. If not we will search till we find it.

From: Sacramento Sky Ranch web site

At the 50 hour oil change, rinse the filter media - I put the filter element into a coffee can with some Stoddard Solvent and shake. Use a toothbrush and wipe down the filter pleats. Take a stick magnet and drag it across the bottom of the can to collect all of your filings. Those long dark iron filings are from the camshaft lobe or camshaft follower face. If you have enough to cover the end of the stick magnet - bad news, your camshaft is bad. If there are just a few around the edge of the stick magnet - everything is normal.

I can't say that this method won't miss something as it will, but for the past 25 years it has proven effective, even if it isn't 100%.

I have more than enough to cover the magnet. It look like what is described above.

The plan is to get it to the engine shop before I leave for Africa. Then when I get home it should be ready to put back in the plane.

I fly over some nasty terrain, I don't need a half ass engine.

Thanks again everybody!

Good day...Rob

[TomD]

Sorry to hear the diagnosis, does not sound good; but having the engine crap out at the wrong time would be worse.

TD

[Littlecub]

The plan is to get it to the engine shop before I leave for Africa......

....I fly over some nasty terrain, I don't need a half ass engine.

Sooo, Which engine shop are you using?.....
Like everything else being done-there are good ones (shops), bad ones, and ones that fall somewhere in the middle (most).
With that being said/true, there are an amazingly few sudden catastrophic failures-for all the many piston aircraft engines plying the sky both day and night. We complain about WW2 technology, but when you combine it with the evolving/improving metallurgy that has happened since then we do have exceptional reliability when we 'touch all the bases'.....
I know many times I look at the rugged terrain passing beneath me and am very appreciative/thankful for that reliability.
lc