Backcountry Pilot

by **flyingzebra** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:27 pm

BCP's, seeking opinions here. I have cash buyer for the 206 and a nice M5 210 locked in the sights. I also have a guy with an incredibly cool Navy N3N (Stearman look alike) that sounds great for either a straight across swap or to buy after selling the 6. The Maule definitely is in line with the many previous threads and "fits the mission". The biplane with it's round motor, is just once-in-a-lifetime cool. This would be a case where the mission would just have to fit the plane. So, on an un-analytical, gut level, anybody have any thoughts? Thanks. FZ

by **Lefty** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:52 pm

For what it's worth....my uncle (who fly's a tricked-out Pacer) has often said he, "never should have sold that Stearman."

Lefty

by **Battson** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:04 pm

I would be sure you will actually use it.

I tend to get caught up in the 'dream' when I fixate on something I always wanted, then spend a lot of money getting something I ultimately dont use very much.... eventually I get over the excitement, realise it's happened again, then finally eat the humble pie and onsell the item (almost always at a loss) and buy what I knew I should have bought all along!

And then the world is at peace again! :oops:

So, that said, you definitely have to get the _______.....!

by **JHenderson** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:30 pm

In my opinion,open biplanes are only fun for 1/2 hour at a time, and between 75 and 90 degrees F.

by **dogpilot** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:47 pm

A few years back, my hanger neighbor had an outstanding Stearman in Navy colors. He come over one weekend and floated a proposition. He wanted to trade time in the Stearman for time in the 185. He really need a plane that was actually useful from time to time so he could go someplace with his wife. So we struck the agreement. A perfect world, but the world hates perfection. So to punish us for a good idea, Hurricane Andrew blew through and turned both of our aircraft into beer can production material.

So, unless you have no practicable application for your flying, aside from boring holes in the sky, I'd pass on the Stearman. The other downside to the old round engine is rather high fuel consumption and generous use of oil and very few choices on overhaul. Then again, if you want to rob banks like Charlie Varrick with his old Stearman, you may have a need.

by **stearmann4** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:24 am

Zebra,

I live in NW WA too (Olympia). I've had my Stearman here for only a few weeks now so my opinion may be jaded. I've been flying my Cub here for 6 years though.

It really comes down to whether you really want an open-cockpit biplane or just like the romantic thought of it. I'll rotuinely fly it with not much thought down to about 45-50 degreees, but the flights aren't much fun beyond 30-45 minutes, and become a real test of will if you're doing any XC flying in those kind of temperatures. However, if you only get a handful of em; the sunny, clear days when you can see all of the mountains from one point and fly in a T-shirt and leather helmet make the rest of the year worth it!

As for cost, insurance will probably be cheaper depending on the hull value and how much T/W time you have. if the N3N has the original Wright engine you'll burn 13-14 gph and about 2 qts of oil every 9-10 hours. That's a pretty good fuel burn for a radial, and probably in line with the big bore opposed engines. I used to have an O-520 in a T-34 and it averaged 16-18 gph. If it's got the Lycoming 300 or R-985 you're looking at 18 and 25 gph respectively. The difference being that the O-520 moved me at 150kts, my radial propels me at 93 mph.

The cost to get a Continental, Wright or Lycoming radial overhauled is about the same as any 6-cylinder opposed engine. Maybe even a bargain considering you're looking at least 7 cylinders. You're looking at about an outright cost of about 20K. There's several good well-known overhaulers just like for opposed engines. I don't know what a 210 or Maule goes for these days, but the nicest N3N in recent years is probably around 90K +/- and only goes down from there depending on the recency of restoration, time on the engine, and how often it flies. A newer restored Stearman goes for 130K or so. The N3Ns are neat planes, but there's no parts support for them. Stearmans have a couple of purpose-built companies dedicated to supplying every part you could need. They're not cheap, but cheaper than genuine Cessna or Beechcraft parts. http://www.dustersandaprayers.com, and http://www.airrepair.com

Finding a good, local mechanic that knows antique airplanes and radial engines may be your biggest challenge. Fortunately, there's a good suppply of them at Olympia. feel free to email or call if you end up needing some more info, a pre-buy or a checkout. If we go fly, it may unfairly sway your decision. The N3Ns is probably easier to land than a Stearman depending on what wheels it has. In the air both are very solid and stable and can handle a lot more cross wind than you think. They have great rudder authority and are heavy enough to not be kit-like (2,000+lbs) Do not believe the horror stories you read about Stearmans/heavy biplanes, etc. Yes, there's no visibility over the nose, but there's none in the back of a Cub either. Keep it straight and it lands just like any other taildragger.

That said, the N3N is a rare classic, a combination of throw back 1920s styling, with some government mandated truck-like construction. Actually, except for the orignal thin pie-pan wheels it's probably better than a Stearman. All metal fuselage, solid tail struts, and ailerons on all 4 wings. Designed and constructed by a firm that wasn't concerned with costs or profit, overbuilt and solid; Naval Aircraft Factory :wink:

As a 70+ year old bi-plane, you're probably not going to want to be criss-crossing the Cascades or bagging strips with it, but that's not what it was designed for. An early morning or sunset flight followed by a smooth roll and loop will put a smile on your face though.

Bottom line, if your wife wants to travel fast, and in comfort, an open cockpit of any sort probably isn't your answer. If you guys like short trips for lunch, and nostalgia, or the old girl (plane not the wife) being treated like royalty at fly-ins then the N3N is your magic carpet!

Lastly, who knows how much longer radial engines will be around, my prediction is we may be the last generation to see them operate as the expertise and parts to overhaul and maintain them is slowly disapperaing. I for one, am sworn to fly mine on a regular basis so my young sons will always remember the sight and sound of an open-cockpit biplane, as their kids surely won't have that priviledge.

Mike-

by **M6RV6** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:42 am

Like Mike and others said, they have there draw.
I have a Skybolt in my Hangar, I'm over on the dry side when I'm home, about an hour and 1/2 from the wet side, I BET IF YOU OFFERED ME THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE 206 AND THE MAULE, you could come over and fly it home and have the best of both!!
I have been gone most of the summers so really gone by the time it's warm enough to comfortably fly it.
The glamour has left for me for the open cockpit.
Kick in the butt to fly, just not go anywhere in it.
GT

by **flyingzebra** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:42 am

All, thanks for the extremely useful feedback! I assume we are going with the Maule for pragmatic reasons (like keeping the aviation friendly wife warm and happy) but I'm still going to look at both this weekend. If only I could keep the 6 and get the other two as well.

by **aktahoe1** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:10 pm

Where is Vick when we need him?

He has a real nice Stearman and a 185...

Are you sure you really want to buy a "Mule"...

Maule/biplane...life is sure rough needing to make a descision like that.

Best of luck!

by **soyAnarchisto** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:32 pm

aktahoe1 wrote:Are you sure you really want to buy a "Mule"...

MUL is the ICAO identifier for Spence Field, Moultrie, GA.

Coincidence? I think not!

http://skyvector.com/airport/MUL/Spence-Airport

'Greg

by **flyingzebra** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:50 pm

Yep, it's pretty much the N3N or the "Mule". After the many threads about fitting the aircraft to the mission, and my experience with what I've flown, the M5 210 just fits the bill really well. Load, speed, fuel burn and field length and cost all workout well for us with that particular combination. The N3N flys in the face, so to speak, of that conventional wisdom. However, it just won't leave me alone! There's just so darn much that's just cool about it. The struggle goes on. I'll see the Maule tomorrow AM and the N3N on Sat AM. Keep bringing on the thoughts and comments! No decision until Tuesday PM...
FZ

by **Bighorn** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:47 pm

If the 206 is paid for....I keep it and go buy the N3N.........

by **Vick** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:26 pm

I'm here, i'm overseas so I've only been checking in periodically.

Man, though choice for sure. Stearmann4 hit most of the main points to consider. N3Ns are very cool and have their own history distinct from Stearmans. If you get it you'll become well versed in explaining the differences between a Stearman and the N3N at airshows. I've flown in formation with an N3N and they got along together fine - anything in the class is going to rumble along at 80-85 mph.

The main question is what do you want to do - camping and traveling or lazy evening leisure flying with a few airshows on weekends? The N3N will draw a crowd anywhere you go with it and giving rides will literally be the highlight of some peoples lives. Airshows and fly-ins will generally love to have you attend and may lure you with some fuel and sometimes even a room depending on the event. If you meet some other folks with Stearmans/N3Ns they make wonderful formation training platforms and flying around in a flight of 2-4 will really get people excited. You can fly them long distance but you've got to have an appetite for adventure - I flew my Stearman from east coast to west coast and it was an experience I'll never forget. I'll also never forget how cold and wind whipped I was and how my ears rang for hours each night. Not complaining, I'd do it again tomorrow, just make sure you like that kind of thing. Odds are your wife won't, mine is good for 30 minutes and a loop or two when the temp is right. With an N3N you will draw members of the greatest generation and they will tell you their stories for hours - that's a good thing as sadly their numbers are dwindling at an increasing rate and their account of history goes with them. If you have kids the N3N will teach them about and connect them with a chapter from our nation's history in a way that few of their generation will have the privilege and opportunity to experience.

Flying the Stearman off a freshly mowed turf strip (so you can really smell the grass) about an hour before sunset on a summer evening is about as close to flying nirvana as I've found and I never get tired of trying for the perfect touchdown. A well executed hammerhead in a biplane is a sublime experience. Starting and running a radial adds that much more class and fun to the equation, if not the bill at the pump.

If I were in your shoes? You live in a literal playground for a Maule and no doubt would have some adventures with that too. I have to say though, even if GA continues to decline Maules will be around and flying for quite some time. This might be your best shot to go the vintage route and learn all that it can teach you. If nothing else, building time and experience in an N3N won't hurt if you eventually decide to sell and move on to a more practical tailwheel model.

by **flyingzebra** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:41 pm

All, your feedback, thoughts and experience are really priceless. I've read each post about five times and text my wife every time a new one comes on. It's a very difficult decision. I have about 250 hours of Maule time and the M5 210 that I'm looking at sounds super sweet. 200 hours on a good OH, new fabric and a nice Garmin stack. It's clearly the practical choice but far from an easy one. To have the opportunity to reach back to another, amazing era and especially, to share that with others is extremely difficult to pass up. I'm very open to more thoughts and opinions, keep 'em coming!

by **Bighorn** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:13 am

No it's not mine....wished it was.....that cocky shit eatin grin is though just after I crawled out on a nice Feb day in TX.

Good luck on your decision ......it's a tuff one

by **flyingzebra** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:49 am

Well, after eyes on both, I'm still unsure. The Maule wasn't quite what I'd hoped, close though. One cylinder running cool and a LOT of rust in the oil filler tube neck. The 200 hours SMOH in '04 obviously hasn't been enough. Oil sample taken and sent off, waiting for results. Lots of other cool stuff though, up gross, 430, new fabric. The N3N was every bit as cool as I'd hoped and even a little better. It's all push-rod control, no cables. Between that and the ailerons top and bottom, I assume it would be a good deal more crisp than a Stearman. No flight in it, it's out of annual and I'm too undecided to ask for anything more than a little bit of time to look it over. So, still thinking.

by **Kevin** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:11 am

I have been reading all the opinions and since you asked I thought I would add mine. I have owned three different biplanes. Two I bought and one I built. I loved all three. They were two Pitts and an EAA biplane. Not exactly on the same level as an N3N but they were biplane cool in their category. I don't know how much if any biplane flying you have but once you fly one and look through those wings and wires you will be ruined. You can see the the content of my message is for a biplane, there are a lot of Maules. Just keep in mind that N3N is like having a stripper for a girlfriend, constant maintenance. As long as you are willing to maintain the ride it will be a thrill.

by **Bighorn** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:22 pm

O.K. Flying Z what did ya buy?

by **flyingzebra** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:54 pm

Well, y'all mighta guessed, from the wishy washy nature of my aviation meanderings, that I firmly believe in the so-many-airplanes-so-little-time approach? There was a lot of rust in the Maule filler neck and high iron and chrome in the oil, and I just never got any sort of nod from my number one passenger, my wife, so this Cessna 180 popped up in SLC? So that's what we got. ~300SMOH and a bunch of goodies so now it's on to a new chapter and I so do NOT miss feeding the 206! Thanks for all feedback and opinions!
FZ