take-off with my stol kit

[raccoon62]

have 1957 cessna 172. plane has sportman's stol kit, and vg's. when i tkae off, with the brakes on and full power, i am banging the tail on the ground. i hold the yoke all the way back. looking for hints, suggestions, criticism.

[Zzz]

1. Moderate elevator input so that you don't rotate so aggressively?
2. Convert it to a taildragger?

[once&futr_alaskaflyer]

Don't hold the yoke all the way back?

You are likely extending your takeoff roll by doing so anyway.

[courierguy]

have 1957 cessna 172. plane has sportman's stol kit, and vg's. when i tkae off, with the brakes on and full power, i am banging the tail on the ground. i hold the yoke all the way back. looking for hints, suggestions, criticism.

Don't takeoff with the brakes on!! I did it today, I had plenty of room, the brakes are weak, and the surface was dirt, so no big deal. I got about 3 miles downwind before I noticed the parking brake was on.

[mtv]

Holy shit!! Find a qualified instructor and learn to fly.

MTV

[flightlogic]

One of the previous comments was really the main point. You are actually extending the take off roll, though not by much. The point of holding the yoke back is to see when airflow makes the elevator effective. But before you get to that threshold, you are just adding drag. Learn what speed (by smaller, more sensitive movements of the yoke) it becomes effective and wait to use it then. Also, aggressive rotation with a low horsepower light aircraft is just not going to gain you much. It may cost you instead. Particularly in a wind shift, where the relative wind drops off suddenly and you find yourself back on the earth... in a less than favorable attitude or location. Don't know how much time you have in that plane, but I think you are chasing a performance gain that just isn't going to happen by over controlling. Learn to land in a really small space. Much more valuable than taking off from a small space, at least in this pilots opinion. Have a great weekend.

[qmdv]

Do you really meen that you take off with the brakes on? I think there is nothing gained by full power and feet on the brakes. On a dirt field that just dings up your prop. The only time you need to pull the yoke all the way back on take off is with a nose wheel on really ruff ground.

Tim

[7853H]

You need to find a real pilot to show you how to fly -- not the dumb ass that has you doing all the stupid mistakes you are making
Really that you learned the mentioned procedures

[qmdv]

Did a by annual flight review one time and the guy had me do a short field take off in the 182B. When I rolled out on the runway (pavement) I just gave full power without stopping. Put in the flaps at about 40 to 45 and just a bit later I was airborn, pushed the nose down to get speed up in ground effect. He said all wrong, you need to hold the breaks with full power then let it go with back yoke preasure.

I told him he needed to take a mountain flying class.

Tim

[oldtech]

My theory is this. If you hold the nose of the aircraft too high on the takeoff roll, you are adding drag from the increased angle of attack. The most efficent way to accelerate is with the nosewheel light or just off the ground, as you approach flying speed, a little more back pressure should ease it off. Your stol kit enables the plane to fly at a lower speed without stalling, but if the angle of attack is creating drag, you are probably actually loosing performance.
Interestingly enough, on a taildragger, if you push forward on the control and hold the attitude with the tail just off the ground, the forward pressure required becomes less and less until it is neutral. (Assuming the trim is set neutral.) it will fly at that point - barely. It's actually harder to judge on a nosewheel plane.

[lowflyin'G3]

I think it's funny when Mike and I have the EXACT same thoughts!

[raccoon62]

just to clear up. the plane does not possess a parking brake. i hold the toe brakes. i am used to keeping the yoke all the way back. this is how i flew the plane w/o the stol kit. it could take off in under 800 feet. this is w/20 degrees of flap. now with the kit: 20 degrees 0f flap, on toe brakes, yoke all the way back. i am popping a wheelie. i think i should be able to get off the ground in under 400 feet? my grass strip is 1200 feet long. weather has been rainy, so i have not flown. i shall try to ease up on the yoke. i have read both ways of taking off...w/brakes on ,and w/o brakes on. the drag thing about the nose high is spot on. iam still experimenting with the stol kit. the other pilots at the field keep ribbing me about having the slowest aeroplane there. but, i am loving it! low/slow is what i really enjoy. saw an eagle about 2 weeks ago. we were side by side for a short spell.

[gbflyer]

just to clear up. the plane does not possess a parking brake. i hold the toe brakes. i am used to keeping the yoke all the way back. this is how i flew the plane w/o the stol kit. it could take off in under 800 feet. this is w/20 degrees of flap. now with the kit: 20 degrees 0f flap, on toe brakes, yoke all the way back. i am popping a wheelie. i think i should be able to get off the ground in under 400 feet? my grass strip is 1200 feet long. weather has been rainy, so i have not flown. i shall try to ease up on the yoke. i have read both ways of taking off...w/brakes on ,and w/o brakes on. the drag thing about the nose high is spot on. iam still experimenting with the stol kit. the other pilots at the field keep ribbing me about having the slowest aeroplane there. but, i am loving it! low/slow is what i really enjoy. saw an eagle about 2 weeks ago. we were side by side for a short spell.

Welcome raccoon62!

I think I know where you are coming from on this. We had a 1968 C172 (1st year of the O320 Lycoming) back in CO when I was a kid. It would fly itself off right when it was ready with flaps 20 and full back elevator. Of course back pressure was eased up when it broke ground, and off we went. Now the guy that showed us this was a crop duster who survived a burning Ag Cat accident with 10,000 hours working underpowered Cessna 188's at 5000' and hot temps off of a fairly short farm strip...not so much experience as some of the experts you will come across on this site, but might be able to hold his own just the same. Anyhow, tried the same years later on a 1975 172. It would drag the tail without rotating, as you describe. I'm not sure what the difference was, stock wing on both. Can't recall ever holding the brakes to see if the tail would hit, but it may well have.

Most of the air taxi 206's in these parts have a skid on the tail tie down ring. These guys only fly 7 to 8 hundred hours a year so I doubt if they know what they are doing either.

Oh and one more thing to those in doubt...there are places where one will apply full power on take off then release the brakes or you will be in the trees or in the water at the end, regardless of what the experts here teach you about flying into and out of the Idaho back country at a mountain flying seminar. Now the wisdom of being there in the first place is quite another subject.

Again welcome. This site can be a great resource, hang around.

gb

[qmdv]

Oh and one more thing to those in doubt...there are places where one will apply full power on take off then release the brakes or you will be in the trees or in the water at the end, regardless of what the experts here teach you about flying into and out of the Idaho back country at a mountain flying seminar.
gb

Read this post yesterday after a bit of flying. At my ranch I have my fields divided up in irrigation checks. For the non farmer, I have raised borders 44 ft appart that I run water down to irrigate. I flood irrigate. I use one of them for my landing strip.

When I take off from 16R I taxi north to the end of the check where I turn arround at the barb wire fence at the north end of the field. I get as close to the fence as I can, no point in having runway behind me. I have to make a 180 deg turn in the 44 ft (no sweat) to be heading south. I use a bit of left brake. A bit after I have negotiated 3/4's of that 180, I get off that left brake, give full power, straighten out the plane and go for it.

If I wanted to use full break and full power for the same take off I would have to make my 180 then stop the plane.

I have not done extencive testing nor have I flown in AK, but it seams to me that giving it full power from a role will get you to take off spead fast than from a full stop. Even if at only 1 mph that is still a 1 mph head start. Next time I fly I will do it both ways and will give a full report.

Maybe GB thinks I should stop the plane, get out and push it back to the fence. If I did that I would have an extra fifteen feet to do the break thingy with. Probably I could get to that 1 mph at the point where I first stopped the plane prior to pushing. I will probably not try this cus pushing a plane through the grass slightly uphill would be a bitch.

Tim

[Zzz]

Though gbflyer may have difficulty containing his sarcasm as he refers to the "experts," it should remind you that there is no credential required to volunteer piloting advice in this forum, and you will get advice from pilots with 10,000 hrs of Alaska single time, as well as 150 hr pilots who've never landed off-pavement. The discussion here is a good start, but not a substitute for instruction from an experienced CFI. Keyword: experienced. There are many instructors out there for whom short field technique has only ever been a fantasy scenario.

[kevbert]

Maybe GB thinks I should stop the plane, get out and push it back to the fence. If I did that I would have an extra fifteen feet to do the break thingy with. Probably I could get to that 1 mph at the point where I first stopped the plane prior to pushing. I will probably not try this cus pushing a plane through the grass slightly uphill would be a bitch.

Tim

Every short strip is different. Some of them let you carry some speed as you turn on to them. Others, you have to taxi to the end of the strip, get out, and spin the tail around into the brush. Sounds like yours is the former.

[gbflyer]

My point being that a couple of you guys jumped on raccoon62 like you know him as being a total idiot. That was the guy's first post for crying out loud. Me, I'd rather see some more participation on here as opposed to climbing all over someone and running them off. I don't know raccoon62's experience level, and I felt his question was a valid one, worthy of something other than "go get an instructor". Sorry, but some of the comments I felt were very rude, and it got my hackles up.

kevbert hit the nail on the head...lots of different scenarios out there. Hard to generalize a technique. We do what we have to do to make it work. I'm sure Lori's fine cadre of mountain instructors say the same thing.

Me personally, I am a novice. I've had the pleasure of flying with some great pilots, but I am not one of them. Every time I get to thinking I know something, life usually gives me a quick correction.

gb

[mtv]

GB,

Here's his initial post: "have 1957 cessna 172. plane has sportman's stol kit, and vg's. when i tkae off, with the brakes on and full power, i am banging the tail on the ground. i hold the yoke all the way back. looking for hints, suggestions, criticism."

He asked for criticism--so I provided some.

Look, there are a LOT of people out there who think they can learn to fly via the internet. I don't know what this gentleman's background is, and I don't care--that's his business.

But, if you take his statement literally (and what else are we supposed to do--it IS the internet), he's suggesting that he's holding the brakes, adding full power, then banging the tail on the ground as he starts to roll.

My response: "Holy shit" is precisely what I would say if I were in an airplane with him when he did that. Why in the HELL would anyone hold the control column all the way to the stop for a takeoff???

The answer is probably very simple: Instruction or lack thereof. It is this kind of "experimentation" without adult supervision that gets people hurt and breaks airplanes.

Then all our insurance rates go up, and the FAA is all over STOL kits, etc, cause they're "dangerous".....right? "Man, did you see what that dude did to the tail on that airplane??? We should rescind the STC on those STOL kits right away".

As to YOUR suggestion, GB that holding the brakes is necessary to get out of some airstrips, I would suggest that if you REALLY need to do so, you are operating your aircraft into strips that you should NOT be going to. If you have NO margin for error, you WILL get hosed one of these days.

Finally, holding the brakes for a short takeoff is almost guaranteed to trash your propeller sooner or later, assuming you're not on a paved strip and in a tricycle gear plane. If you do so regularly, or even once, you may well inflict enough damage to destroy your propeller. I've watched a numbnuts do just that: destroy a BRAND NEW Cessna 172 propeller. One takeoff, on a gravel strip, holding the brakes and full power prior to brake release. There was a rock ding in that prop so deep it was not repairable.

In the off airport world, especially in a tricycle gear airplane, holding the brakes and pushing up full power is really tough on propellers. And, if you REALLY need to do so, you shouldn't have been there in the first place.

But that's just opinion, and we all know about them. Hopefully, he'll take it in the spirit in which it was offered.

I repeat my suggestion to the gentleman: Go find a COMPETENT instructor and get a little bit of dual instruction. It might just save your propeller and it won't cost much more than posting here.

MTV

[Zzz]

I had one more thought on this while watching my coffee drain through the cone this morning. I am not an expert, in fact I've got very few hours compared to everyone here, but I have paid close attention to operating a dog of an airplane. I'm just another opinion in the sea of Internet pilots.

A STOL kit is a slight modification to the leading edge cuff, changing the camber of the wing slightly to preserve flow and eek out just a little more lift at low speeds. One thing it does not get you is more horsepower, which is what you'd need to start climbing immediately at the pitch attitude you're achieving in your ultra aggressive rotation.

So while you might have enough lift to break ground and mush along at an extreme attitude at a lower airspeed, that 172 just lacks the HP to climb out at that attitude, and you will wallow along in ground effect without climbing unless you moderate the elevator input and allow the machine to gain airspeed, hence your tail strike.

Banging the tail of an aircraft on the ground during takeoff should be avoided by any means necessary, even with a tail skid. Full-yoke-aft in a tri-gear plane on takeoff is taught for soft/rough field takeoffs to alleviate the drag and abuse on the nosegear, but that aft yoke should be relaxed once the machine starts flying in lieu of an elevator input that will allow you to start gaining speed without losing altitude.

Perhaps everything I wrote is just citing the obvious, and all Raccoon62 is looking for is some additional insight on operating with a STOL kit, and the banging of the tail is just part of "feelin 'er out?"

[Jaerl]

Welcome Racoon, I am one of the 150 hr pilots so take it with a grain of salt. I have a C150 so I need all the help I can get taking off. I never stop while turning unless a tower tells me to. I keep the elevator neutral, flaps up until I get to 38-40. Then I hit 10 degrees of flaps while I "pop" it off the ground. I stay in ground effect till VX (62-65 mph) then I climb out. That seems to work best in my plane but I have never been to a strip where I needed every inch of runway.

Don't let some of the guys here scare you off, these guys would give Bob Hoover crap. There is a lot of good info so you should stick around. You might want to get a copy of Sparky Emerson's Mountain Flying Bible. Lots of good info there too.