More ethanol discussion

[Zzz]

Sorry for helping this towards hot air
It is interesting to here from those who benefit from gov. hand outs. It's all about money in your pockets and to hell with your neighbor.
A fellow pilot and I were talking today about the money being spent at our local airport, it is huge!
And while it is a benefit to us locals, it is not necessary and just goes to show how our gov. has no idea how to spend our money wisely.

Well, if you feel like tanking it, best form is to go ahead and start a new thread with a link the old one. You can even link to a specific post in a thread. I do this frequently.

[once&futr_alaskaflyer]

Then you would burn 100LL instead of mogas. And if the 100LL is transported in the same truck as mogas, no guarantee that its ethanol free.

That would be highly unlikely because it would taint mogas deliveries with TEL.

[qmdv]

Then you would burn 100LL instead of mogas. And if the 100LL is transported in the same truck as mogas, no guarantee that its ethanol free.

That would be highly unlikely because it would taint mogas deliveries with TEL.

Not sure about other places, but 100LL is delivered in dedicated trucks in our part of the country.

Tim

[Flat Country Pilot]

Can you elaborate on this contention?

No,

And didn't intend for any contention.

But like I said above, these discussions go nowhere, round and round.
I should stay a lurker and keep my hands off the keyboard.

I don't care what fuel you burn, 100LL, Mogas or ethanol.

My only "contention" is the subsidys. As a farmer and corn grower, I don't like subsidies and I don't think ethanol should be forced on you guys. 180Marty and Lance might come over here and beat the hell out of me, but I believe farm subsidies have done enough damage to us and need to stop. So now I'll be quiet and go home.

Bill

[RDUStinson]

Then you would burn 100LL instead of mogas.

If anyones in doubt about fuel quality, burn 100LL from a reliable souce.

I agree with you that the best thing about 100LL is probably the quality and reliability. the bad things are that a) It's REALLY bad for my Franklin engine, and 2) It's probably going away.

I'm all for energy independence (and fluorescent light bulbs are OK sometimes too), but don't like having either forced down y throat.

[lancef53]

Bill, I agree on the subsidies--They are a waste of taxpayer dollars.

[180Marty]

I agree to---no subsidies. That means straight across the board, farm, oil,airlines and anything else I might not know about.

[qmdv]

Now that we have kissed and made up, I have a tech question.

Does anybody know of any tests that have been made with ethanol gas mix (10 % or so) that have been made with airplanes with bladders. I have had a conversation with the folks at Texas Skyways that obtained an STC for an engine that runs on AGE85 in a C180and C182. They run stock bladders if I am not mistaken. If it is OK with FAA to run 85% then don't you think 10% would be OK. http://www.engineering.sdstate.edu/~eth ... _desc.html

Please nothing about boats, go karts or subarus in the reply.

Tim

[180Marty]

Texas Skyways that obtained an STC for an engine that runs on AGE85 in a C180and C182. They run stock bladders if I am not mistaken. If it is OK with FAA to run 85% then don't you think 10% would be OK.

Nitrile rubber is the material that is ethanol resistant. When I talked to Eagle Fuel Cells, nitrile is all they use anymore.

[RDUStinson]

Federal funding for alternative avfuels research?

http://www.charterx.com/resources/article.aspx?id=6432

That would be a good thing for us, and I guess it's not really a "subsidy" is it? Just the FAA spending money to support aviation, which is their charter...

[hotrod150]

I don't even have a problem with the subsidies for farmers and distillers -- I think a lot of us are subsidized, in ways we may not even be aware of. For example- as a single person, I am subsidizing my co-workers since we all contribute the same amount per hour into our union health plan, and they ae getting several times the amount of health care coverage as me (depending on the size of their family).
My problem is with not being able to get un-ethanolized gasoline. I still think mandated E10 (or whatever) is bullshit, but can live with it -- if readily-available non-ethanol 91 octane premium is mandated. Something for everyone, a workable compromise.

Eric

[Jaerl]

Well it has finally happened. I have seen the dreaded "This fuel can contain up to 10% Ethanol" Stickers poping up all over town. I had been checking the station where I buy my fuel and it has been ethanol free.

Saturday, I went to fill some cans by the Airport and there was the new sticker on the pump. I only bought 10 Gallons and then headed to the Airport to check it. There was 6% ethanol in it so I guess the party's over. First the Loran and now this. Where will it stop?

[qmdv]

Does that meen my favorite stop, Delle has it. I am coming out in that way in two weeks, I would lke to know.

Tim

[Jaerl]

I just found this on the internet. Looks like everyone is going to be stuck running this crap:

"As part of the Energy Policy Act of 2005, the U.S. Congress put into place the requirement for increases in the amount of biofuel (usually ethanol) that must be mixed with gasoline sold in the United States. In response to this requirement, Chevron and other refineries will begin to produce and sell gasoline containing 10% ethanol (E10) in Utah beginning the end of March 2010. (Fact sheet & Conversion Checklist) (Utah Department of Agriculture/Weights and Measures rules regarding ethanol in motor fuel."

I was talking to my mechanic yesterday about this and he told me his Toyota truck had started going a hundred miles less on a tank. He thought it just needed a tune up but when he checked the mileage on his wife's car, it was doing the same. I know Utah required it in the fuel during the winter months for a couple of years. Then they got a waiver from the EPA because they found it wasn't reducing emissions.

I know there are tests showing cars getting the same or better mileage using ethanol, but the cars they use in the tests are designed to run on it. If you have an older car your going to see a drop in mileage and performance, at least that's been my experience.

What good does it do to reduce the gasoline percentage in the fuel 10% if people have to burn 25% more fuel to drive the same miles. Looks like the gas companies have found a new way to get there profits up to where they were before people started driving less.

This is BS plain and simple!

[WWhunter]

I just got back to MN after being gone from home and my planes since Dec. I went into town a couple of weeks ago with ALL my gas containers (I live 30 miles from town) to get fuel for the planes. The station I normally get all my 91 octane (non-oxygenated) no longer has it!!! I was bummed. Apparantly I was not the only one, the cashier didn't have any idea what I was talking about when I asked if they no longer carried non-ethanol fuel. She said there had been many people asking....mostly snowmobilers. All the stations in this town no longer sell non-oxygenated fuel.
I had to go back home and then go 30+ miles to a different town to find fuel. Apparantly even though MN has an agreement that premium fuel does not require the addition of ethanol, most places are now adding it. Guess the bean counters have found another way to boost profits without thinking about the people that need a non-oxygenated fuel. Last few years around here have seen recreational flying slow WAY down due to fuel prices...I think this is going to be the nail in the coffin for lots of guys. The huge difference in the price of premium vs 100LL is enough for them to just own hangar queens.
100LL at the local airport was $4.55 if I remember correctly whereas 91 mogas was $3.10.
WW

[qmdv]

As much as I would like to blame hope and change, this started a long time ago. The farm lobby will not let this go away nor will the folk s that think this will save the planet. Interesting bed fellows.

Tim

[180Marty]

Just saw in GA Flyer where Phil Lockwood gave a talk at S n F on using 10% ethanol in Rotax engines. Too bad the current STC holders for auto fuel couldn't get things changed. All they would have to do is a little education on how to deal with 10% such as cover the vent up between flights, put fresh fuel in and don't let it sit around for 6 months etc. Because of politics, it can't be that simple.

[Skydive206]

I have run my Experimental Long Eze w 0-235L2C on E-85. I ran over 400 gals through it when E-85 was $1.25 per gal and 87UL auto fuel was over $2.00, AvGas was $2.85-$3. I have the aircraft instrumented w/ JPI edm 700 with fuel flow, oil temp, oat, cylinder air inlet temp, Data Logger. The Lyc air cooled, updraft carb into oil pan system loved the fuel in the heat / combustion cycle. It made 20% increase in power, better cyl and oil temps. MPG was reduced slightly at Cruise power LOP, Max power this engine would pull 15GPH, 3200 RPM, 150HP. Ran well in summer heat but any ground temps below 55F you had starting problems with the carb. The ethanol cleans the metal parts in the carb, Heads, etc so well that corrosion forms during periods of inactivity. During operational inspections and tests I couldnt get corrosion to form but after letting the project sit for a month or so I found small (too much) corrosion in the carb, and in the Cyl heads, guides. I wrote a paper on it a long time ago, Dont know were it is now. Without increasing the fuel flow from your carb (drill bit) and proper instrumentation, your engine will run too lean (even E10) at low alt full power. most of the new tanks, seals, orings are now alcohol tolerant but I have tested some old materials and it gets ugly fast. High tank, gravity fed carb systems dont have to much of a problem with Vapor locking with alcohol but aircraft with fuel injection, low fuel systems with engine driven pump, exposed fuel lines in the engine compartment the (even E10) alcohol boils easy and creates bubbles that can block the fuel. I still run E85 in my 68 Chevy 292 High Comp tool truck in the summers. Better fuel milege. I can put my timming back to 10 BTDC, 87UL I have to run 5 ATDC.

[180Marty]

Skydive, The AGE-85 that South Dakota formulated has 1/2 to1% biodiesel in it just for the coating it puts on the metal for inactive periods. Not sure but Marvel Mystery might do the same thing. My 1992 Toyota 4x4 has had 50% ethanol in it for a little over 9 years now and it has a steel gas tank and aluminum fuel rail. So far it still runs like a champ but haven't looked inside at those parts. I have added a little biodiesel once in awhile.

[Jaerl]

Here is a good site with ethanol info:
http://www.fuel-testers.com/index.html

I just talked to a guy at Delle, Utah. He said they don't have ethanol in their fuel and Sinclair made the decision NOT to use it.

I am going right now to the Sinclar Station and getting some fuel. I will let you know if it has it or not.

Jerry