More ethanol discussion

[hotrod150]

Just saw a blurb in an EAA Sport Pilot mag from earlier this year that sez EAA is lobbying against mandating any (more) ethanol in gas, but it sounded like they're not having much luck. Hope someone that can do something about this comes to their senses pretty soon.

Eric

[EZFlap]

Bill,
I have a 1960 172 with an O-300 and have been burning auto fuel almost exclusively for over 20 years. Same goes for my Champ. I would guess somewhere's in all those years I have inadvertently poured in some gas with ethanol. I have never had any problems.

Thanks WW, I appreciate the vote of confidence from an O-300 driver. I think here in CA there is something like 6% ethanol in everything. I'm guessing that running a 75/25 blend of de-alcohol-ized car gas and avgas would work well enough on the octane and lead issues. A large part of the cost savings buying car gas would be lost, due to time and effort to take the crap out, then mix it with avgas, etc. 91 octane car gas is about $3.25 here, so it's not dirt cheap. But airplane gas is $4.00 to 4.50 in this area, so there is still a savings.

[hotrod150]

I think here in CA there is something like 6% ethanol in everything.........

Maybe overall 6%, but I would guess that if your gasoline has ethanol it's (at least) 10%. That seems to be the maginc number the industry has settled on- for now. Supposed to be going to E15 one of these days, unfortunately.

Eric

[hotrod150]

..... I would guess somewhere's in all those years I have inadvertently poured in some gas with ethanol. I have never had any problems..........

Occasional use is probably OK, but a stedy diet of nothing but ethanolized gas might be a different story. Kinda like drinking whisky....

Eric

[180Marty]

Occasional use is probably OK

Is a little over three years considered occasional?

[TexasNick]

If you have insurance and crash with ethanol in your gas, what happens to your coverage?

[hotrod150]

Occasional use is probably OK

Is a little over three years considered occasional?

In my opinion, yes- of it's on a once in a while basis. Re-reading your ealier post, you said after over 2 years of using E10 the carb shop thought your carb looked "very good" inside. Great. What about the rest of the fuel system, like your rubber fuel bladders & aluminum lines? I'd actually be more worried about the ethanol/water thing and the possibility of increased carb icing and water-slugging the carb.
Here's a couple mogas STC supplier webpages addressing ethanolized gas:
http://autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/ethanol.html
www.eaa.org/autofuel/faqs/ethanol_blends.pdf
I see you're in the corn belt, Marty, and as I recall you're involved in the corn-growing/ethanol industry? No offense, not trying to cause a fight, but IMHO you've got a vested interest in believing it's OK to use E10 in airplanes. I don't, and I don't-- esp after reading these two webpages by the outfits who've done the R&D work on mogas use.
To each their own, you burn what you like--I'll pass on E10 as long as E-zero is available in my area.

Eric

[crazyivan]

Just talked to a local A&P as he was removing an O-300 from a C-172 that droped a valve through the piston at 1300 hours. He said that he sees a lot of valve problems with engines running car gas (mogas) - not enough lubrication for the top end. He suggested to run 100LL and mogas alternately. He also suggested to ass some Marvels Mystery Oil to the mogas when you are filling the tanks.

Another of his conserns is that car gas does not have the same purity requirements as aviation gas. There are some hack gas stations out there selling poor gas.

I'm all for saving $1.50 per gallon of gas, but doing so smartly. Good discussion on this forum but none of us are petrolium experts...just a bunch of a$***les with as many opinions.

[TexasNick]

I'm all for saving $1.50 per gallon of gas, but doing so smartly. Good discussion on this forum but none of us are petrolium experts...just a bunch of a$***les with as many opinions.

True, but the EAA STC and FAA cite studies like the following:

"Extensive FAA Technical Center testing concluded that valve seat recession with autogas use is not significantly different from avgas use"
http://www.eaa.org/autofuel/images/letter-2.pdf

"The more we learn about autogas, the better we like it"
Autogas vs. avgas, SYSTEMS TECH: http://www.eaa.org/autofuel/autogas/art ... rt%202.pdf

There seems to be a wide range of opinions from A/Ps.

hey, saving $1.50 per gallon is a big plus!

[dirtstrip]

This is the most notable ag plane in Brazil. Many Ethanol powered by Lycoming IO 540's. Ethanol retro kits available. No mention of voided warranties on the engine.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/04/embraer-sells-i/

[hotrod150]

..... I'd actually be more worried about the ethanol/water thing and the possibility of increased carb icing and water-slugging the carb. ...........

I re-read the blurb in Sport Pilot magazine-- it also mentioned the increased risk of vapor lock with E-gas.

[Bonanza Man]

If you have insurance and crash with ethanol in your gas, what happens to your coverage?

Having rolled one airplane up into a ball that had nothing to do with the gas in the plane the answer is nothing. I think people have this mistaken idea that if you crash a plane the insurance adjuster is going to come out and give the wreckage an annual inspection and then deny coverage for the slightest thing. In my case they never even looked at the gas tanks.

[TexasNick]

If you have insurance and crash with ethanol in your gas, what happens to your coverage?

Having rolled one airplane up into a ball that had nothing to do with the gas in the plane the answer is nothing. I think people have this mistaken idea that if you crash a plane the insurance adjuster is going to come out and give the wreckage an annual inspection and then deny coverage for the slightest thing. In my case they never even looked at the gas tanks.

I hope you're right...I have this crazy thought that one of my NO STEP placards will fly away during the crash and then the insurance adjuster is going to claim that the airplane was illegal to fly to begin with. Beeeep! Insurance denied!

[Jaerl]

I was bummed when Peterson's told me the Avcon 175 wasn't approved for Auto Fuel. The same engine is approved for it in other planes but I was told it takes thousands of hours running every model on Auto fuel to get it approved. Just not enough Avcon Conversions to make it profitable.

In the 150 I do run some lead additive or Avgas once in a while. When cars went to unleaded they started using hardened valve guides. I don't know if Aircraft have ever changed the alloys used in the valve guides. MM Oil is a good lube for the valves too. I don't think it is illegal because my mechanic told me Piper once had a service bulletin advising to use it for some condition. Don't know if that is true but I know I have unstuck valves in cars with it.

I was real surprised when I payed for the STC for the auto fuel and got stickers and a metal band. I would be real curious to know what the Ethanol Conversion kits consists of. Maybe stickers, metal band and a button to put on your cap.

[low rider]

I would probably run 100% mystery oil if it wasn't so expensive

[dirtstrip]

I don't understand why it should take thousands of hrs of running on auto gas to get an stc approval in each type. The original auto fuel stc for the 152 was only about 650 hrs. done by the EAA and they had to plow the first road through the walls of bureaucratic and industry manufactured roadblocks to its approval according to the article.
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/article ... lsPick.pdf

[hotrod150]

.......... I was real surprised when I payed for the STC for the auto fuel and got stickers and a metal band. I would be real curious to know what the Ethanol Conversion kits consists of. Maybe stickers, metal band and a button to put on your cap.

You musta got the Petersen STC-- the EAA STC is just stickers.
I'm curious as to what "ethanol conversion kits" you're talking about, I wasn't aware of any. For certificated aircraft anyway, at least here in the US of A.

[hotrod150]

.... I think people have this mistaken idea that if you crash a plane the insurance adjuster is going to come out and give the wreckage an annual inspection and then deny coverage for the slightest thing. In my case they never even looked at the gas tanks.

I think if you had a big claim that was fuel/car ice related, they would look a the fuel. And if you were running ethaolized fuel, which is clearly not approved for use, they might give you a hard time. Unless you could prove that it wasn't your fault- like if it was in some 100LL somehow. If you knowingly (or even unknowingly) fueled with ethanolized car gas, seems to me that they'd be in a legitimate position to deny the claim.

Eric

[patrol guy]

I just ordered another 1000 gallons of 91 octane auto gas, like I have done about every 5-6 weeks for the last 5-6 years and got a big surprise!

Lately my Ohio distributor has had to order the ethanol free stuff from a PA refinery, since Ohio is completely 10 percent ethanol.

My guy called me back and said that "O" has a new regulation that allows up to a 6% mixture to still be called conventional or ethanol free gasoline. The oil companies get some sort of tax break if they push this mixture.

My guy just now called again, and said that there is no way he can tell me if there is ethanol in the next load. The gamble is up to me.

Question: Can the rain gauge with a measured amount of water and gas detect that small of a percentage?? And once again, what is the negative down side to running ethanol in the summer at tree top levels? I would never be into the freezing levels.

[Jaerl]

Patrol Guy, you should be able to check it using water and fuel. I bought a fuel sump checker from Aircraft Spruce and it has a gauge on the side to check for the percentage of ethanol. There is a line for water and then after you fill it it shows what percentage is in the fuel. I think the first line is 10% but you should be able to see 6% pretty easy.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/a ... Tester.php

Also Carb ice can form in the summer. Here is a quote from Rod Macado's Book. "Be prepared for carburetor ice to form at almost any outside air temperature, though it is most likely to occur between outside temperatures of 20 degrees to 70 degrees Fahrenheit "

If it is colder than 20 degrees outside the air won't hold water so you don't have to worry much unless it is snowing or there is visible moisture.