Prepurchase Flight Question

[PilotRPI]

If it is me, please let me know...

I took someone's plane up for a test flight and it didn't go super smooth. I asked if I could go up another day as I wasn't positive it is was me or the plane. The second flight was quite short, and it solidified that there were some things about the plane I didn't like, so I was no longer interested.

During those flights, I offered to and did pay for gas. In all for both is was 1.2 hours of flying.

I sent him a very nice email saying thanks but no thanks. He writes back and asks for $120 for the time flying the plane. This is over twice the rate the guys use as their maintenance reserve rate ($100 an hr vs $50 an hr quoted as part of group ownership if I joined). He'd never mentioned anything about me needing to pay for a maintenance reserve, and I thought it would be appropriate to pay for any gas I had used.

What do you guys usually pay for when trying out a plane to buy? In my mind, those are costs of selling that should be the responsibility of the guy selling his share. I've sold cars and motorcycles and never asked for money for their time in the car for maintenance expenses...

On the plus side, I now know I made the right choice not entering that partnership.

Thoughts?

[hotrod150]

Doing demo rides is part of the cost of doing business when you're trying to sell an airplane. Of course, there are limits..... I was trying to sell my first plane, a stock C150, and there were a bunch of guys who were gonna partner up on it. I took the leader for a ride, when we got back and he said "who's next?" and they all said "me" I decided that was enough of that shit.
What kind of airplane? I think maybe I'd send enough to pay for all of the gas used- say it was a C180, 1.2 hours x about 12 gph @ about $6/gallon for 100LL equals about $86. A C170/172 class airplane burns 8-9 gph so that'd be about $65.
Oops, just saw that you wrote you paid for the gas at the time of the ride. Nobody ever even offered to do that with me, it seems like you were more than fair with the guy. Sounds like he's just being pissy because youre not interesting in buying.
You could ask him for documentation in the form of a copy of his rate sheet and his flight-seeing and/or air taxi paperwork.........

[Glidergeek]

Depends? You don't say how much you paid for gas, also you didn't start out saying it was a partnership. Was it? And you don't say what costs would or were agreed upon before the flight? The partnership I was in in the late 80's was very comfortable and we had an hourly cost established. I'd say if you paid 50% to 100% of the hourly cost that's reasonable, but that should have been agreed before hand. If this is a 12 gph or in that area fuel guzzler than $100 per hour might be in the ball park for total hourly expense. But the seller should be able to compromise and assume some expense to sell. Just my opinion and you're getting what you are paying for

PS if their expenses are say $80-$100 per hour and this guy demo's the plane 8-10 times, if it is a partnership he will have to pay regardless if you buy or not. So do the math that could be $800-$1000, he needs to be a good salesman.

[littlewheelinback]

Some guys get real annoyed with the process of selling an airplane. If it isn't part of a written or verbal pre-buy agreement you don't owe him a thing. Sounds like you agreed to pay for fuel and did. You were not renting the aircraft. You where legitimately interested and didn't choose to buy. Just feel good you didn't buy something that wasn't a good deal for you. Searching for an aircraft is a time consuming and expensive process and both parties should expect to spend resources during a pre buy, not just the buyer.

[mtv]

Remember that, per the FARs, unless an airplane is LEGALLY operating "for hire", the most youreallowed to pay is an EQUAL share of the operating cost of the airplane. Per a Chief Councils opinion, the equal share may NOT include maintenance reserves, etc...only direct operating cost.

Tell them no thanks, and if they push it ask them for their operating certificate to operate for compensation or hire.

MTV

[Sierra Hotel]

Having sold my share of a partnership last year, I'd suggest that a) it's the cost of doing business for the selling party, b) it was never mentioned prior to the ride - it's on the seller, and c) unless the Seller is a commercial pilot and the plane is operated under Part 135, he can't ask for total costs as this would push this to a commercial transaction - as a PP he can only share costs.

My $.02, but I'd politely decline to pay any more.

======
On edit, I see Mike was responding along the same lines . . . I must be bright after all, my parents did call me "Sun"

[PilotRPI]

Yeah, no costs were agreed to beforehand. I was not part of the partnership as a potential buyer, so I never agreed to their internal agreement.

I just payed for the gas as I thought it was the right thing to do, they didn't even ask. I topped up the tanks from when we left and it came to a whopping $35 dollars for the first flight. The second flight I offered to pay for gas again, but they didn't even want to bother as it was a really short hop and it uses so little gas, but hey, I did offer.

They usually plan on 5-7gph for their plane. I'm happier now that I said no.

[soaringhiggy]

For what it is worth, I think you made the correct decision. You should know that you are comfortable with the plane and it what you would like. There is interest in both sides of the equation, his to sell yours to buy, cavet emptor on the buyers part.

If not agreed in advance no agreement is made.

Dane

[Zzz]

Sour grapes on the seller's part. Like Hotrod said, a demo flight is part of the marketing budget when selling. As a seller, I would be upfront about whether they were a tire kicker or not, and make sure they were serious. If they are, hey going flying is still a treat.

[obxbushpilot]

An airplane sale requires both buyer and seller to take a risk, but the buyer has much more at stake. What if you had decided to proceed with the sale and you paid for a prebuy? What if the prebuy reveals that there are issues with the plane that you are not willing to accept? Would you be able to get your prebuy money back? What if the title search reveals a lien once you're ass deep in the sale?

I think it was a nice gesture that you compensated them for the gas, but the request from the seller is petty. This shows that the seller is unreasonable as he does not appreciate that you have much more at stake then the hourly cost of a couple of short flights.

[flyingzebra]

I gotta agree with all the above. I've bought and sold six airplanes and test flew probably six more that I didn't buy. Never a penny changed hands other than the actual sale. I could see a discussion prior to the flight and asking for a pro-rated share but only if the seller is either homeless and desperate or just a middle aged cranky guy. Hey, I am a middle aged cranky guy! Next plane I sell it's gonna be about a thousand bucks a ride!
FZ

[182 STOL driver]

Having sold my share of a partnership last year, I'd suggest that a) it's the cost of doing business for the selling party, b) it was never mentioned prior to the ride - it's on the seller, and c) unless the Seller is a commercial pilot and the plane is operated under Part 135, he can't ask for total costs as this would push this to a commercial transaction - as a PP he can only share costs.

My $.02, but I'd politely decline to pay any more.

======
On edit, I see Mike was responding along the same lines . . . I must be bright after all, my parents did call me "Sun"

How's the 182 doing John -I remember you had a short prebuy flight before the SNOW storm !

[Cary]

I have to say that's the most ridiculous "demand" I've ever heard of. Seller is not only violating the law rather clearly and should know better, but it's unreasonable for any seller to require a buyer to pay any of the expenses of a test flight. Oh sure, if the test flight is a cross country for a hamburger, share the expenses as the law allows, but otherwise, sheesh!

Years ago when my airplane partner of the time decided we needed to go faster, we tried out a flock of different go-faster airplanes, all of which were flown by the sales people to Laramie from wherever, mostly the Denver area. Not a one suggested that we should compensate them for the half to 3/4 hour we flew. When I got Mooney fever years later after using a friend's 231 for a couple hundred hours, the Mooney rep flew specifically for my test flight all the way from Salt Lake, and we spent at least an hour in the airplane so I could feel the differences between an Ovation and the 231. Not a cent--but a lot of phone calls as I unsuccessfully tried to put together a consortium to buy it (it was only $460,000!).

Cary

[Sierra Hotel]

Having sold my share of a partnership last year, I'd suggest that a) it's the cost of doing business for the selling party, b) it was never mentioned prior to the ride - it's on the seller, and c) unless the Seller is a commercial pilot and the plane is operated under Part 135, he can't ask for total costs as this would push this to a commercial transaction - as a PP he can only share costs.

My $.02, but I'd politely decline to pay any more.

======
On edit, I see Mike was responding along the same lines . . . I must be bright after all, my parents did call me "Sun"

How's the 182 doing John -I remember you had a short prebuy flight before the SNOW storm !

Doing well Bill, thanks. Not flying as much as I'd like (fishing and that thingy called "Work" get in the way), but it's all good. I went with a larger nosefork and bigger tires this spring, really makes a difference on gravel and unimproved strips. Next year I'll look at adding a Sportsman's and extended baggage.

And you're correct, we did get in a little demo flight before the snowstorm last year, and the buyer never brought up any type of payment. A nice gentleman . . .