Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Lycoming, Continental, Hartzell, McCauley, or any broad spectrum drive system component used on multiple type.

Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby EZFlap » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:32 pm

dirtstrip wrote:
How could a company in start up mode be able to produce an engine for 8 or 9k with US labor, how is that possible?
Won't they face the same costs as other engine manufacturers?


By not having a huge bloated corporate bureaucracy, 500 secretaries and 500 vice presidents, a huge office building, and not being owned by two or three shell companies and a holding company and an offshore bank and 200 lawyers, and most importantly by not having 50 non-aviation corporate rodent "managers" who justify their existence by not letting airplane people make airplane decisions.

By not selling their F***ING engine manufacturing machinery and tooling, and then having to farm out life-critical parts to the lowest F***ING bidder.

By not having F***ING shareholders to answer to, because you can get sued or thrown out by shareholders if you do something that costs them ten F***ING cents a share even though it was the safer thing to do.

The engine designs are already certified, no money needs to be spent on new engine certification for the time being. so this becomes a manufacturing issue. They need people in-house who know aluminum casting, and steel forging, and machining, etc. ... done in-house, not out-house like a certain company in Williamsport did. If they do it all in-house, they have tighter PMA control, which means a lot less time and paperwork and outsource headaches with the FAA. Their insurance will be less because the insurance is not covering two or twelve sets of manufacturing crews and companies and whatever. Also, the price of your engine is lower because only one company has to make a profit .

They can do it by having a wise and steady leader who still wields an absolute dictatorship (think Paul Poberezny) in an office next to the production floor, not a "boardroom" or even a democracy in a separate building. By having that dictator be fair and sincere and caring for his/her workers, but bargaining directly with the workers and staying non-union to keep the union BS the hell out of his company (We now have laws and rules that address the injustices back in the days of the "industrial revolution". So a union is now a very expensive bloated bureaucracy itself, addressing problems that no longer exist to a degree that justifies their existence, and unions have a modern history of causing more problems than they solve).

Oh crap, did it again... where's my medicine!?
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Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby wtxdragger » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:51 am

I have your medicine and you can't have it back ! :)
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby Stol » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:04 am

wtxdragger wrote:I have your medicine and you can't have it back ! :)



And think.... just yesterday EZ was a Jet Blue captian.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :^o
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby Cary » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:37 am

Gosh, EZ, why don't you say what you mean? :)

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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby Tadpole » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:40 am

i just heard that at the Franklin forum this morning at SnF they had a brand new 4 cylinder crank and pistons there to show.
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby franklinaircraftengines » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:28 am

Hi, this is April with Franklin Aircraft Engines, USA, LLC! Thanks for all the wonderful positive feedback and thoughts that have been shared so far! Please keep it coming! I just wanted to stop in and remind everyone that we are at Sun-N-Fun right now, booth NE16, everyone in our crew (expect me of course) is there on hand to take any questions that you may have. It has been a very interesting week so far and I’m sure there will be more to come! Also I am in the process of working on another message that addresses some of the concerns and questions that we have received, I want everyone to stay well informed of what we are doing and exactly how we are planning on achieving our goals! Again, thanks to everyone, and please feel free to pass this on! –April :D
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby M6RV6 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:32 am

April
GOD N YA!!!
Glad there is some good ol' USA/Canadian get er done stuff still going on.
Please keep us updated.
We all are proud of YA' :mrgreen:
Thanks GT
Have as much Fun as is Possible and don't get Caught!
Keep SMILIN!

GT
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby dplunkt » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:53 am

To EZFlap's point when companies get larger than a couple hundred employees that seem to start spending money on things not related to the business.

As for Dirtstrip's question I woudl reverse it and ask why, with no real change or R&D since the 1950's, does a Lycoming cost so much. In reality they should have paid off all their development expenses long ago. The engine design is simple and the actual production costs should be in the $5,000-$7,000 range. So why is a new one $30K?
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby Tadpole » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:57 am

dplunkt wrote:As for Dirtstrip's question I woudl reverse it and ask why, with no real change or R&D since the 1950's, does a Lycoming cost so much. In reality they should have paid off all their development expenses long ago. The engine design is simple and the actual production costs should be in the $5,000-$7,000 range. So why is a new one $30K?


To build up the bank account to settle out of lawsuits? I know one aviation company that banks away cash for that reason.
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby EZFlap » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:42 am

dplunkt wrote:The engine design is simple and the actual production costs should be in the $5,000-$7,000 range. So why is a new one $30K?


I understand that they sold off most of their manufacturing equipment years ago, and now they have to buy all their parts from outsource vendors.

Each of those outsource vendors probably pays insurance, pays staff, pays rent, pays electricity, pays worker's comp, etc. etc. Then each vendor has to make a profit. Then Lycoming has to inspect each part and certify it again themselves. So the pile of parts sitting on the production floor ready for assembly costs Lycoming a hell of a lot more than if they made it all themselves. Cha-Ching!

Lycoming also has to carry huge insurance (they's been in some huuuge lawsuits Bubba), so nobody can ever blame them for carrying a lot of expensive coverage.

The combination of these two issues is IMHO likely the reason that a ten thousand dollar engine costs thirty thousand.

Lest anyone think I'm bashing them or chastising them too harshly, I love Lycoming and want them to succeed. It's one of the great legacy aero engine companies loved and trusted by millions, and it's still made here for the most part.

Perhaps I'm not the only one who remembers a proud marketing slogan from another greatly beloved aero engine company... "Powerful as the Nation". Nowdays if that mfg. started using that slogan again, it would raise a a disturbing question as to which nation they're talking about :cry:
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby 172heavy » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:17 am

Maybe, just maybe, with a positive Southern getter done type attitude, (not like in California the can’t getter done state, [-X :roll: because they, bury it in red tape, fees, studies, permits, jump through our hoop, tax it till its dead, kiss our ass type environment. It’s OK I live in CA. :( ) Franklin Aircraft engines will once again be a strong player in the aviation market; [-o< I can see the potential market at some point in their life time repowering most of the existing C-172s or the C-150 with either a Franklin 180 or 220 or 125 Hp engine, when parts and complete engines become readily available, and it comes time to repower there is no comparison between flying behind a Franklin 220 as compared to a Lyc 180. How many home builders would like a fresh Franklin to plug into their home built? When Franklin makes a comeback, would Aircraft manufactures once again consider putting them in there aircraft? another point is the interchangeability of parts, many of the Franklin engines used the same parts, Connecting rods, wrist pins, lifters, oil pumps, bearings, pistons, rings, valves, cylinder castings can be rebuilt many times due to their one piece design all these things add up and help keep manufacturing and maintains costs down.
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby dirtstrip » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:33 pm

[quote="172 How many home builders would like a fresh Franklin to plug into their home built? .[/quote]

All of them. Anyone with an experimental could have a certified engine design for much less than a Soobie-do conversion.
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby Zzz » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:02 pm

172heavy wrote:Maybe, just maybe, with a positive Southern getter done type attitude, (not like in California the can’t getter done state, [-X :roll: because they, bury it in red tape, fees, studies, permits, jump through our hoop, tax it till its dead, kiss our ass type environment. It’s OK I live in CA.


Anyone, anywhere, can fuck up a business. In fact, it's the natural state of a small business. Business accumen plays a much larger role than the bureaucratic thumb. I hope these folks are able to pull it off and do something smart to keep it afloat, something that seems to have been elusive for the past Franklin resurrection attempts.

Their biggest challenge is the size of the market, in my opinion. I think many owners make their decisions based on company strength and parts support, and the reputation of Franklin support in the past will haunt them. Those Viking LSA engines for example... many people got excited on the Honda name, but the company has been slow to deliver and they are simply too swamped to be very responsive. Airplane owners are easily spooked.

Just noticed we have April here. Good luck, the 6A-350 design is awesome, I wish you guys success.
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby Cary » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:11 pm

it would raise a a disturbing question as to which nation they're talking about
Ain't it the truth! :cry:

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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby Emory Bored » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:31 pm

Without meaningful tort reform I don't see any possibility of success, but then I'm a cynical old fart. I really hope I'm wrong. If I won the Mega Bucks I'd chip in to help.

Maule has survived for decades on the philosophy that they don't need insurance. Are they still of that mind? So maybe it can be done. A small company with limited commitments outside the four walls might have a chance I suppose. They may have to do their casting in Mexico though. Alcoa threw in the towel on US made aluminum. It's a bitch trying to out maneuver the damn alphabet soup.
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby Littlecub » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:18 pm

Business acumen plays a much larger role than the bureaucratic thumb.


There are some pretty good businessmen that would question that statement.....
Admittedly the KIND of business has a lot to do with which gov enforcement agency is playing nemesis, but since you are from Oregon might I mention logging?

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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby cessnaford » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:12 pm

So, I just cruised through the Franklin website. Doesn't look like its to active. Has anyone heard anything new, or if their dream is still on track?
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby mountainmatt » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:46 pm

I have not heard a thing since SnF. I know Susan/April have a lot of stuff in TX that they have to move.

Still hoping this dream is alive. [-o< Any updates would be welcomed.
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby Tadpole » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:56 am

About 3 weeks ago Susan said she was going to have good news via a big announcement, but never made it.
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Re: Franklin Aircraft Engine USA - BORN AGAIN

Postby 29singlespeed » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:54 am

Tadpole wrote:About 3 weeks ago Susan said she was going to have good news via a big announcement, but never made it.


I spoke with her this past week because I am looking at planes with franklins in them. Sounds like a 220 is 12months or more away.
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