Backcountry Pilot • Request on landing technique

Request on landing technique

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Request on landing technique

18 yrs flying in a Cessna 206 (2100 hrs), IFR rated.
4 months with Cubcrafters Carbon Cub SS-LSA (20 hrs) Maybe 50 landings.

I have really learned a lot from the instruction video in the forum section. I think I am getting it.

Here is my current technique.

On final: full flaps, 36-38 MPG, just a bit of throttle, setting up for 3 point landing.

No real flare. I keep a bit of throttle until touch down. I am very hesitant to keep any throttle in on touch down, but if I don't it results in a hard landing.

How much throttle do you use on the last few feet, if any?

Is there another way? If the engine quit at 20 feet, I think I'd be screwed. ?

Thanks for any tips or comments.
Fresno offline
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Re: Request on landing technique

I always set up a super cup at 50 mph full flaps no power, then use power to adjust your aim point. Aim well forward of your landing point, as you flair ad power to carry you to your touch down point, when you get there chop the power and land. You will b going really slow by then.
We fly at gross all the time so obviously you can go slower when light, but if you set up to slow it takes a big burst of power to arrest your sink rate.
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Re: Request on landing technique

Fresno wrote:18 yrs flying in a Cessna 206 (2100 hrs), IFR rated.
4 months with Cubcrafters Carbon Cub SS-LSA (20 hrs) Maybe 50 landings.


Congrats on the Carbon Cub!

If these 20 hours and 50 landings make up a sizable portion of your taildragger time I wouldn't be playing around the max performance side of landing just yet. A good hard bounce could easily lead to a ground loop.

Here is what I'd do in this situation. I'd start by getting to know my new plane's performance and landing characteristics at all weight and CG configurations. As part of this I'd become extremely proficient at dead stick landings, incorporating flaps and slips, both individually and combined - as the POH allows. I'd work on dead stick until I could land from the downwind leg without ever having to add power. And I'd do this from 1,000 feet, 800 feet and lower if I could.

And I'd go high and practice stalls, all power settings, all wing configurations. And I'd practice slow flight, as far behind the power curve as I can get, and I wouldn't just fly straight ahead, I'd practice slow flight maneuvering. And I'd do this at all weight and CG configurations.

I'd work on three points, wheel landings, tail low wheel landings. And I'd seek out crosswinds until I had them mastered. I'd practice landing on windy, gusty days. I'd practice on dead calm days. At all hours of the day, not just when it's smooth and cool. And I'd go to as many different airfields as possible, including ones with obstacles on the ends.

I'd do this until everything became second nature, and until I never had to look at the airspeed indicator.

Only after all this would I work on uber-short, max-performance landings.

And I'd do all this in baby steps, because I'm a slow learner and I don't want to bend my plane. And I'd have a blast doing it. :D
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Re: Request on landing technique

Find a well qualified flight instructor, who has experience in CCubs!

MTV
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Re: Request on landing technique

Fresno wrote:18 yrs flying in a Cessna 206 (2100 hrs), IFR rated.
4 months with Cubcrafters Carbon Cub SS-LSA (20 hrs) Maybe 50 landings.

I have really learned a lot from the instruction video in the forum section. I think I am getting it.

Here is my current technique.

On final: full flaps, 36-38 MPG, just a bit of throttle, setting up for 3 point landing.

No real flare. I keep a bit of throttle until touch down. I am very hesitant to keep any throttle in on touch down, but if I don't it results in a hard landing.

How much throttle do you use on the last few feet, if any?

Is there another way? If the engine quit at 20 feet, I think I'd be screwed. ?

Thanks for any tips or comments.


After a couple thousand in a 206 the cc probably feels like a kite on steroids :)

Your speeds sound good... Your technique sounds good...
Supercub speeds and technique will be close but not a direct translation of the cc's.

There are as many ways to do this as you can count, all depend on the pilots experience / proficiency, and the mission. No one size fits all :?

Why do you feel hesitant to carry power up to the touchdown ? Not a trick question... Just curious. I hesitate to dead stick ... Anything... Except for the occasional fun, or practice.

If you feel like you will be screwed if things get quite at 20' you are probably flying to lean of an approach. You can probably stand to fly a much steeper approach than you are used to, while maintaining the same speeds. This will net you safety in terms of altitude, and more energy at the rotation point to flare with.

I rarely see a point that will end poorly if the engine quits at 20' AGL. Maybe never.... Ok shortfielder, maybe cactus flats... :x but in that case 20' above the touchdown has you approaching a verticle rock face... But situations like that are the exception.

BTW, separating energy management (which does not have to be done at an idle) and thrust management, and then mastering both, will net you the best performance.

Take care, Rob
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Re: Request on landing technique

Barnstormer wrote:
Fresno wrote:18 yrs flying in a Cessna 206 (2100 hrs), IFR rated.
4 months with Cubcrafters Carbon Cub SS-LSA (20 hrs) Maybe 50 landings.


Congrats on the Carbon Cub!

If these 20 hours and 50 landings make up a sizable portion of your taildragger time I wouldn't be playing around the max performance side of landing just yet. A good hard bounce could easily lead to a ground loop.

Here is what I'd do in this situation. I'd start by getting to know my new plane's performance and landing characteristics at all weight and CG configurations. As part of this I'd become extremely proficient at dead stick landings, incorporating flaps and slips, both individually and combined - as the POH allows. I'd work on dead stick until I could land from the downwind leg without ever having to add power. And I'd do this from 1,000 feet, 800 feet and lower if I could.

And I'd go high and practice stalls, all power settings, all wing configurations. And I'd practice slow flight, as far behind the power curve as I can get, and I wouldn't just fly straight ahead, I'd practice slow flight maneuvering. And I'd do this at all weight and CG configurations.

I'd work on three points, wheel landings, tail low wheel landings. And I'd seek out crosswinds until I had them mastered. I'd practice landing on windy, gusty days. I'd practice on dead calm days. At all hours of the day, not just when it's smooth and cool. And I'd go to as many different airfields as possible, including ones with obstacles on the ends.

I'd do this until everything became second nature, and until I never had to look at the airspeed indicator.

Only after all this would I work on uber-short, max-performance landings.

And I'd do all this in baby steps, because I'm a slow learner and I don't want to bend my plane. And I'd have a blast doing it. :D


Gees Phil, if we all did this we would have any crashes to talk about :shock:

But seriously that is good advise.

G'Day...Rob
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Re: Request on landing technique

mtv wrote:Find a well qualified flight instructor, who has experience in CCubs!

MTV



That's a tough one Mike, that plane with half fuel (maybe less) and two two hundred pounders and it's over gross.
You would have to do the instructing where no one is looking..........but nobody does that do they? :^o
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Re: Request on landing technique

Nothing wrong with using power/pitch to touchdown slow and then close throttle. Like Barnstormer said, you need to be able to do the gravity only thrust spot landing as well. Using the slow power/pitch approach allows you to mitigate strong crosswind components by landing between the downwind corner of the runway and the upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking. One thousand feet is plenty in a strong wind. Still need to counter what crosswind component is left with bank and maintain the new landing line with dynamic, proactive rudder. Any slow approach give more and safer options in various conditions.
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Re: Request on landing technique

Rob wrote:
Why do you feel hesitant to carry power up to the touchdown ? Not a trick question... Just curious. I hesitate to dead stick ... Anything... Except for the occasional fun, or practice.

Take care, Rob



First, thanks to everyone for the advice.

My 206 landings are usually 20 degrees of flaps and closed throttle. On the question, I think I am not used to dragging the CC in on the prop. I will get used to it but I wanted get some feedback if that technique is sound.
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Re: Request on landing technique

By keeping our closure rate with the numbers what appears to be quite slow, meybe a brisk walk or slow trot, we will not go behind the power curve until we are in ground effect anyway. We can get considerable sink on a downwind landing because we are using more pitch to slow the apparent rate of closure, This extra pitch will require extra power to keep the glide angle. On a downwind landing we may touch down with a lot of power.

Many use this approach but don't call it apparent rate. No airspeed indicator needed or wanted, by the way. Think about how you handle a bounce. Add power to ease it back on. From the add power point, you are making an apparent rate of closure approach. You will not be that slow back at 500' and one quarter mile out. It doesn't matter how fast you approach to this point. This is the point where things will appear to get faster as you get lower and closer. It is amazing how well it works. I have made the last 50,000 or so landings using this approach because it has worked well in all conditions. It is what allows the angle across the runway on strong crosswinds.
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Re: Request on landing technique

Just out of curiosity, why do you only use twenty degrees of flap on the 206? I always use full flap on ours even on long runways I figure why land any faster than you have to?
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Re: Request on landing technique

I agree with River Rat. I use full flaps on all landings, if I have them. In gusty conditions, you just have to use the throttle as a dynamic (you can move it) control.
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Re: Request on landing technique

Fresno wrote:I have really learned a lot from the instruction video in the forum section.


What video is this?
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Re: Request on landing technique

Zzz wrote:
Fresno wrote:I have really learned a lot from the instruction video in the forum section.


What video is this?


On this site. Very impressive and was very helpful to me.

" The Approach - Attitude flying
Post 26 December 2013 In The Approach

This first installment of The Approach -- a series on strategy for approaching and departing backcountry airstrips -- will cover final approach, and show how proper use of attitude flying can produce a stable landing with very little excess energy that could otherwise extend landing and rollout distance."

@river rat. I used 20° of flaps on the 206 on larger airports. I'm pretty good about flying the numbers and minimal flaps allow me to grease it on. However short field I agree for flaps

@contact flying. "By keeping our closure rate with the numbers what appears to be quite slow, meybe a brisk walk or slow trot, we will not go behind the power curve until we are in ground effect anyway. We can get considerable sink on a downwind landing because we are using more pitch to slow the apparent rate of closure, This extra pitch will require extra power to keep the glide angle. On a downwind landing we may touch down with a lot of power."

Okay, a couple of questions. How do to recommend to slow the descent rate (at 40-50' before touchdown)?

A) shallow out the pitch a bit and pick up a couple of knot of airspeed. Leave some room for bit of flare.

B) keep the pitch to hold 36 MPH and squirts of throttle to arrest the descent. No or little flare.

Both have worked for me, but B) results on short roll outs.

What do you think.

Ps. I am ordering the book today.
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Re: Request on landing technique

Do yourself a favor and fly with Ben Hodges, Some of us CC owners here in Nor Cal are going to hire him.
I think it will help us fine tune our technique on the advanced stuff. You can come up here and play with us
on the gravel bars anytime. Mike
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Re: Request on landing technique

@contactflying and rough air,

Thank you for your help. I am looking forward to the book.
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Re: Request on landing technique

I agree more time and gradual skill development is the way to go. Before starting to hit spot landings get the landings working right. Consistent one, two and three point. Gradually increase windy and cross wind practice. Start flying down the runway in landing attitude and just keep as close the touch down as possible. When you touch down get right back into low flight. This will teach reflexive throttle and landing attitude control.

I usually land my CC one point with power until just before touch down. The digital airspeed will stop reading because it is indicating below 25 mph. Analog will read about 20 and gps about 33. But I don't monitor those. I am pitched up in ground effect working the throttle. All by feel. Mike
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Re: Request on landing technique

Hafast wrote:
mtv wrote:Find a well qualified flight instructor, who has experience in CCubs!

MTV



That's a tough one Mike, that plane with half fuel (maybe less) and two two hundred pounders and it's over gross.
You would have to do the instructing where no one is looking..........but nobody does that do they? :^o


I'm well aware of the useful load (or is that useless load) of many of the current crop of LSAs.

I would respectfully point out that a flight instructor CAN provide excellent "dual instruction" while standing on terra firma.....with a radio in hand.

And, no, I do not advocate nor do I participate in over gross weight operations. I can introduce you to a couple CFIs who've lost their certificates over that kind of nonsense.

MTV
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Re: Request on landing technique

To back up MTV, using a radio on the ground is how we teach ag students in single pilot aircraft. I can even do that legally.
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